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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 7th, 2011, 9:17 am 
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'Pruina' is rare in single-language dictionaries; or dictionaries with 'pruina' are rare online. The only other instance, apart from the 2007 Wordsworth, I could find was in A Popular and Complete English Dictionary of 1848 which said:

Pruina, proo-i'na, n. Hoar frost. The appearance resembling powder observed on ripe fruit.
Pruinous, proo'e-nus, a. Frosty. Relating to the pruina of plants.

It may have been by oversight that the Latin origin is not indicated but for other words on the same page the origin is shown, e.g. Prudence ... [L. prudentia].

Free Merriam-Webster says the first known use of 'pruinose' is circa 1826.

Oxford English Dictionary and Merriam-Webster Unabridged may know more; subscribers only.

The general impression is that 'pruina' is well established as an English word botanically while meteorologically "Hoar frost is also called pruina (if you want to sound supersmart while you are discussing the weather)" (or artistic?) may sum it up. Wikipedia says (under "Frost") that 'pruina' is synonymous with hoarfrost.

"Lessons in Latin" as a bonus from web search. By Sara Coleridge, first published in 1834.

And a modern IT-based approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 9th, 2011, 12:14 am 
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Jo UK wrote:
I can't remember - is there a difference between hoar frost and rime frost?

I think I have heard that the hazy appearance on blueberries is called a bloom -

This is becoming very complicated, very fast!
According to Wikipedia, rime is not frost at all. Because frost is, by definition, "the solid deposition of water vapour from saturated air", that is, vapour (gas) to solid snow/ice, and rime is formed from liquid water that freezes.
But evidently they don't always differ much in appearance. Both hoar frost and rime can be needle-like and not very like bloom or "pruina".

Swedish children used to call blueberries without bloom (or pruina?) "shoemaker berries". I seem to remember that the bloomless berries were usually smaller - but it might be that they were nearly black: old fashion tips always said black makes you look slimmer.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 13th, 2011, 7:46 am 
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Bloom or botanical pruina and sloes, Prunus spinosa - one more thing:
"sloe-eyed" means having very dark, almost black eyes (several sources also say almond-shaped?).
That must clearly refer to sloe berries without the normal "pruina" - the usual berries, with it, are a beautiful misty blue.
1) bloomless sloe berries are quite rare where I find sloes. I see much fewer blackish sloes than black bilberries.
2) sloes are not native in America (distribution map HERE), so missing in a great part of the English-speaking world.
A not very common plant, and an unusual variety of it, is used as likeness - can it be from the sloe gin? :mrgreen: - after steeping the berries in alcohol the bloom is gone.

PS. A person with such dark eyes could be described as "sõstra-silmaline", currant-eyed, in Estonian. Blackcurrants, hopefully - not red ...


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 14th, 2011, 7:19 pm 
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It's strange that the name of a round-shaped berry is used to describe something that is almond-shaped or slanted. Could the author mean some elusive quality? merriam-webster.com says "having soft dark ... eyes". Can 'soft' include hazy or misty? Then there will be no need to remove the bloom.

Or

Wikipedia says 'sloe-eyed' "is first attested in A.J. Wilson's 1867 novel Vashti". Can it be American sloe? This is closer to almond-shaped and is native in America.

ImageImage


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 16th, 2011, 11:07 am 
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Thanks, unp!
It seems that the slanting shape is almost as important as the dark colour in "sloe-eyed". But the comparison with a round berry could well mean just the iris and pupil.
Quite true, in some dictionaries the compilers seem to have seen fresh sloe berries (P. spinosa) and try to reconcile that with the usual meaning, "dark", by adding "soft". But normal fresh European sloes with bloom (pruina) in nature are clearly blue, and if anything a medium-light blue.
The bloom comes off in alcohol (as for sloe gin) or hot water (as in preparing sloe syrup, "slånbärssaft"), so as cookery remains they are black or purplish-black.
"Sloe-eyed" by the way is even in a not too advanced English-Swedish dictionary on my computer; both slanted and dark given as translation. And Google presents 12 million hits :shock: .
Well done for a not too well-known fruit - European or American sloe both - and dito author!
Said of mrs Augusta J. Evans Wilson in whose novel Vashti sloe-eyed was first noted as used ("attested"?): "one of the pillars of Southern [American] literature" ; "critics claimed she plundered the dictionary just to find unusual words to stuff into her novels" :innocent: .
Too late to pick sloes now around Stockholm, but berries still hang on to branches. Maybe birds, like people, have forgotten how to use them, or think it is too much trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 17th, 2011, 2:13 am 
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:puzzled: was it here we had a discussion about Holly ? Here are some tips and lots of info about the holly-trees !

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/299853-deck ... paign=News

(please move if the article doesn't fit here ?)

Do remember to go easy on the hollypicking for your house deco.this Christmas. :thumbs:

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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 17th, 2011, 7:22 am 
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Thanks to Project Gutenberg A.J. Wilson's novel Vashti is available online and searchable. Apparently the same person is described as "Very black eyes, brilliant complexion", "rosy-faced, bright-eyed", "black-eyed", "sloe-eyed, peony-faced girl". Quite in line with the traditional use since the 14th century (or maybe earlier). Eyes are "black as sloes" since 1727. So it seems there was no need to observe the native blackhaw (American sloe).
No hint of the shape - almond-like, slanted or whatever; bluish or purplish hue; or softness. Simply black. Some interpretations are a long way from the original meaning, like
Image HERE
where they don't look like black or even dark at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 18th, 2011, 10:35 am 
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Thanks for the holly reminder, Macdoum! Easy for us to behave here in Sweden, Finland and Estonia and the other Baltic countries - no wild holly (Ilex) growing anyway, it needs a maritime climate. One site marked in Estonia on distribution map, legend "interglacial fossil".
The Oregon grape (Mahonia) could be stand-in (escapee from gardens) but the very pretty, glossy green leaves dry quickly. - Another plant with dark berries that are blue with bloom, "pruina", by the way!

And those sloes - the French name is "prunelle", little prune. Also meaning pupil, iris of the eye. :innocent:


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 19th, 2011, 12:01 am 
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Liis wrote:
Thanks for the holly reminder, Macdoum! Easy for us to behave here in Sweden, Finland and Estonia and the other Baltic countries - no wild holly (Ilex) growing anyway, it needs a maritime climate. One site marked in Estonia on distribution map, legend "interglacial fossil".
The Oregon grape (Mahonia) could be stand-in (escapee from gardens) but the very pretty, glossy green leaves dry quickly. - Another plant with dark berries that are blue with bloom, "pruina", by the way!

And those sloes - the French name is "prunelle", little prune. Also meaning pupil, iris of the eye. :innocent:


She is as precious to me as 'comme la prunelle des mes yeux' i.e. Most precious being usually, but also means an object that is precious. 8-)

And,how come our neighbour has a Holly tree :puzzled: I will have to ask him.
Please don't tell him we pinched a branch for the Advent wreath. :innocent: Only a little one. :peek:

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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 19th, 2011, 12:13 am 
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and
Expressions de prunelle

Prunelles de ses yeux.
Prunelles qui se dilatent, s'élargissent, s'étrécissent.= react by dilating,enlarging...
Prunelles qui luisent de colère, d'envie = bright with anger,envy.
Eau-de-vie, liqueur, carafon de prunelle.....Mmmm
Cueillir des prunelles =pick the prunes
Jouer de la prunelle= eye signals,like ' a come-and-get-me look.!
Tenir à quelque chose comme à la prunelle de ses yeux=someone/thing precious.

Prunelle= Wild Blackthorn.
Prunelle (Blackthorn fruit)

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Order: Rosales
Family: Rosaceae
Subfamily: Prunoideae
Genus: Prunus
Species: P. spinosa
Prunelle is the French word for the fruit of the Blackthorn shrub, (Prunus spinosa), known as a sloe. It is too sour to eat but is used in jams and jellies.

From it a dark acid plum-flavored liqueur of the same name is produced in Italy and France. It is sometimes labelled as Prunelle de Bourgogne and has an alcohol content of 30º proof (15%). It is also used in Britain to make sloe gin, an infusion of sloe berries in gin with sugar added.

References The Free Dictionary
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/prunelle
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 19th, 2011, 10:23 am 
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Location: Germany - In the Middle Rhine Valley
Concerning the article from Dec 10
I was very astonished to read in the weather description of this article the name of the storm (Friedhelm). It is a rather German name, and the latest (Joahim, Klausdieter) not less – so I thought that it will need some research for explanations!
Now, things turned out to be as following:

Taken its beginnings in the U. S. (TC Center in Miami) in WW2, the worldwide meteorological organisation was taken over by the WMO in Geneva, Switzerland. It was decided that for the entire European Northern-Atlantic weather and especially its pressure systems the taxonomy of first names should be introduced. The reason for it - to enable a precise correlation and distinguish of storm warnings all over these large regions and to help getting reported the different damages as well as being used for statistics - led to a regular follow-up from A to Z. Ask a forester for the most famous names that have caused great damage to “his” forest...it will take only a few seconds…
For Europe the taxonomy was started in 1954 by Meteorological students of the Free University of Berlin and is well established nowadays. The names’ sexes in order of equality are changing on a regular scheme. But the reason for the more or less unfamiliar names (in a European sense) in the younger time is an obviously popular campaign of this University. It allows you to adopt a name, which is free electable within certain rules. (The price of 199 Euro at minimum is only…)

But have a closer look yourself onto the web presentation: http://www.met.fu-berlin.de/adopt-a-vortex
Really a very interesting and extensive site – in an English version!

(In terms of “adopting” something making sense, I personally would adopt an orphaned badger yes, that IS possible in England!)

By the way:
Does anybody know what happened to the twice cut by :shock: storm jõulupuu on Tallinna Raekoja platsi? (Aitäh, Kristel Vilbaste – she had hinted to a YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8wH8XMHnbg)

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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 19th, 2011, 10:41 am 
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macdoum wrote:
-------------------------
And,how come our neighbour has a Holly tree :puzzled: I will have to ask him.
Please don't tell him we pinched a branch for the Advent wreath. :innocent: Only a little one. :peek:

You and him not being anywhere near the sea and maritime climate? Good question!
1) it may be a planted holly, and we manage to make plants grow nicely where they wouldn't be on their own 2) for the holly the point in a maritime climate is probably not being near the sea but simply a milder and more humid climate than inland.
Quick look at various sources says that holly is a remnant of evergreen forests in an era with milder, damper climate.

More eyes - quote from Internet: "She has the most amazingly dark eyes. Like prunes in a dish of cream" ... :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 12:19 am 
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Last (?) sloe - "comme la prunelle de mes yeux" - "Apple of my eye"?

The mosses - wood-moss and feather moss - have been used to tighten up houses; still called husmossa ("house moss") and väggmossa ("wall moss") in Swedish.

Tamme-Lauri's oak even has its own lightning conductor, after having been struck several times by lightning.
A 500+-year oak was cut down in Stockholm city a few weeks ago after some heated debate. A tree specialist was brought in from Norway, even, to judge its status. It was feared that branches or the whole tree could fall down on passing traffic.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 5th, 2012, 6:12 pm 
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Felis silvestris has translated Liis' summary and translation of Urmas' and Ülo's lecture in November at the EOÜ about the raptor nests.

Tranlsated, that is, into German, for our German speaking members and visitors.

viewtopic.php?p=122054#p122054


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 3:25 pm 
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On the LK page there is an article "Who or what is a birder" by Margus Ots.
He refers to being a bonger, organising bongers, etc.

In UK, we know of Twitchers.
Are bongers of the same species?


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 5:02 pm 
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Jo UK wrote:
On the LK page there is an article "Who or what is a birder" by Margus Ots.
He refers to being a bonger, organising bongers, etc.

In UK, we know of Twitchers.
Are bongers of the same species?

Well, we discussed the various varieties at length some time ago, in connection with Tõnn I think.
Sorry, what with getting blessed with (real) bird names by the dozens I didn't have the time to find out what - if anything - was decided on. Nor the finer distinguishing characteristics.
On the whole it seems that the see-and-score race in Finland and Estonia are happy to go by the name bonger.
I will probably need a twitcher (bonger, birder?) glossary anyway, so will ask Margus Ots :innocent: .


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 5:35 pm 
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Liis wrote:
Jo UK wrote:
On the LK page there is an article "Who or what is a birder" by Margus Ots.
He refers to being a bonger, organising bongers, etc.

In UK, we know of Twitchers.
Are bongers of the same species?

Well, we discussed the various varieties at length some time ago, in connection with Tõnn I think.
Sorry, what with getting blessed with (real) bird names by the dozens I didn't have the time to find out what - if anything - was decided on. Nor the finer distinguishing characteristics.
On the whole it seems that the see-and-score race in Finland and Estonia are happy to go by the name bonger.
I will probably need a twitcher (bonger, birder?) glossary anyway, so will ask Margus Ots :innocent: .


I found out such text in "Roheline Värav" veebileht. "Bongarid on need, kes käivad kellegi leitud lindu vaatamas. Bongar ja bongamine on meil laenatud soomlastelt, kes on selle omakorda üle võtnud rootsi keelest." I can't exactly translate it, although I understand the meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 7:57 pm 
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Bong, bongare etc is - as far as quick research can show - not used in this context among or about Swedish birdwatchers. If anything, that variety is called "kryssare" - tickers, cross-offers.

Swedish Wikipedia gives 3 main uses/meanings http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bong
- a receipt used between restaurant kitchen and service to keep track of what guests had ordered
- a receipt at horse races.
- a contraption to allow you to drink a maximum amount of beer in minimum time
The 2 first just may have to do with the bang! of an old-fashioned cash register being shut. And must surely have been replaced by IT ... In Sweden at least it is a rather yesterdayish word.

The registering function might be the reason to have had the word revived for birdlisters. But the paths of words and uses of words are crooked and strange ...

A literary bonger has published a collection of essays on the charms of bonging: Lars Sund, A morning-sleepy birdwatcher's confessions - En morgontrött fågelskådares bekännelser", 2010. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 9:20 pm 
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It would be interesting to have Margus Ots' interpretation!


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas from the Front Page
PostPosted: January 7th, 2012, 10:25 pm 
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Liis wrote:
Jo UK wrote:
On the LK page there is an article "Who or what is a birder" by Margus Ots.
He refers to being a bonger, organising bongers, etc.

In UK, we know of Twitchers.
Are bongers of the same species?

Well, we discussed the various varieties at length some time ago, in connection with Tõnn I think.
Sorry, what with getting blessed with (real) bird names by the dozens I didn't have the time to find out what - if anything - was decided on. Nor the finer distinguishing characteristics.
On the whole it seems that the see-and-score race in Finland and Estonia are happy to go by the name bonger.
I will probably need a twitcher (bonger, birder?) glossary anyway, so will ask Margus Ots :innocent: .


Leonia (who still can't log on) and I just had the same discussion by email, and I found the old discussion through Google
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=160
She asked me to ask, if a bonger is a twitcher?

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