DISCUSSION ESTLAT Osprey Nest 1 Madis & Piret ~ 2012

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Jo UK
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Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012

Post by Jo UK »

Birdie wrote:Jo, do you have the slightest idea why birds prefer Sudan? :puzzled:
I have never been there, myself. It must have attractions that I don't yet know about. Sorry, I can't help!
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Post by Jasmijn »

Text deleted.

This topic is for discussion of the Estonian Osprey Nest WEbcam.

Personal attacks and criticisms are not tolerated here.

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Post by Birdie »

Jo UK wrote: I have never been there, myself. It must have attractions that I don't yet know about. Sorry, I can't help!
Maybe it has something to do with the earth rotation?
And the winds , which are from a different side from the north of the earth to the south?
:puzzled:

the only thing I know, is that the storks from Germany find something like a pool of grashoppers in the Sudan. But ospreys?

:puzzled:
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Post by Kukelke »

IKat wrote:My very curiousity is why I am here. I want to know about these birds, I like watching them grow, I love seeing the parents interact with them, I like seeing what they eat, how they interact with one another.....seeing who is strong enough to make it....and sadly who may not. I WANT Piret to make it to her wintering grounds....I WANT her to find enough fish to never be hungry.....I WANT her to come home next spring and give me the opportunity to see her again.....and of course I want to see her new nestlings. I want her to be strong and survive. And perhaps, just perhaps this small device will help me (yes, selfish me) know where she is and that she is surviving and because of this I may be blessed enough to see her next spring again. Is it ideal? No, it is not. But, it may help to make the next generation of Osprey stronger by helping us to know where they go....and where they do not go....if they have enough food and survival instincts to make it in the wild. I have "followed" two of the North American bald eagles....two females with transmitters....watched them progress around the perimeter of their parents territory...followed the fishing areas they frequent....watched as the lack of rain in one area caused them to instinctively search for better fishing areas....and they are surviving. Hopefully they will choose mates and produce their own young this coming spring. But, it has been fascinating to track and follow them on their journeys. If that makes me a selfish human I am sorry. But, I will keep watching and hoping they make it in the wild. :D
I agree on all this with you IKat, but... and it's a big but... ONLY if this is a side-effect of the main goal which is, and always should be, scientific research in order to find out what we humans can do to help these birds, to improve their survival rate and thus their reproduction rate (and which allows us, as said already, to have a peek too).

We should never allow that animals get these devices on their backs just for our personal entertainment only. Eventhough it would be wonderful if one day cameras would be small and light enough to be carried by an osprey, without causing any harm whatsoever to the bird, so we would be able to see the world from the osprey point of view, it would still be not right to do that only to entertain the people at home.

So, when these birds get transmitters for scientific purposes, as is the case here, we'll be happy to have a ride along. In any other case we should oppose it.
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Post by Jo UK »

Kapa, thank you. Interesting. I have read the same, or similar here.. I believe UK will be behind other countries in doing this.
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Post by Birdie »

So come on folks from Germany!
Not all energy companies support this eagle project!

This is real humbug!

I have no idea where meierlein gets this information from!
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Post by alli »

maertha wrote: Hi alli, I forgot to say hello to you yesterdy :blush:

I missed it yesterday, but this morning I had the opportunity to watch a similar scene - wing exercises (S8), then only two chicks in the nest. With the utmost probabilty this was no maiden flight, because every now and then a wing tip or tail tip was visible. I post some pictures and a video later. Maybe Macko has recorded the "big moment" yesterday?
Thank you Maertha for your answer, I´m sorry for spelling your name not right the first time :cry:
This cam/ and forum are just amazing. I´m so curious about one thing= how did you all find this wonderful cam??

Take care,
Alli

I meant these birds and this forum :blush:
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Post by meierlein »

Birdie wrote:So come on folks from Germany!
Not all energy companies support this eagle project!

This is real humbug!

I have no idea where meierlein gets this information from!

:mrgreen:

I know it, my dear BIRDIE ^^

if you are really interested, you can find that informations even in the WWW ^^

:wave:
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Post by Birdie »

meierlein, be sure you never will know about social projects of my energy company!
Or do you know which one I choose?
I've been looking to the www but sorry, no eagle projects to find!
Sad but true :cry:
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Post by Fee UK »

It was from the Federal Ministry for Environment, Wildlife Conservation and Nuclear Safety.

And I disagree - all big European business operating in areas that affect any of the above are obliged to conform with regulations and contribute. Some do it genuinely (I've worked for one), others see it as an inconvenience so will make donations. (I've worked for one of those too!)

But whatever the motive, the obligation is there.
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Post by Jo UK »

Thank you, Fee. That is reassuring.
And welcome to LKF
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Post by Kukelke »

Birdie wrote: Maybe it has something to do with the earth rotation?
And the winds , which are from a different side from the north of the earth to the south?
:puzzled:

the only thing I know, is that the storks from Germany find something like a pool of grashoppers in the Sudan. But ospreys?

:puzzled:
In Sudan the Blue Nile and the White Nile merge to form the Nile, so there's water and thus fish on which ospreys can feed.

But I think we're talking here about the new state South-Sudan, in particular the vast Sudd, a huge marsh and wetland area formed by the White Nile.

From wikipedia:
The Sudd (Arabic سد, sad, "barrier"), also known as the Bahr al Jabal, As Sudd or Al Sudd, is a vast swamp in South Sudan, formed by the White Nile. The word “sudd” is derived from the Arabic word “sadd”, meaning “block.” The term has come to refer to any large solid floating vegetation island or mat. The area which the swamp covers is one of the world's largest wetlands and the largest freshwater wetland in the Nile basin.

(...)

Its size is highly variable, averaging over 30,000 square kilometers. During the wet season it may extend to over 130,000 km², depending on the inflowing waters, with the discharge from Lake Victoria being the main control factor of flood levels and area inundation.

Sudd was designated as a Ramsar Wetland of International Importance on 5 June 2006.

(...)

The Sudd provides food and water to large populations of migrating birds, with more than 400 species of bird found here including Shoebills, Great White Pelicans, and Black Crowned Cranes. As the surrounding landscape is a large swathe of dry Sahel across Africa the swamp is also a haven for migrating animals, especially antelopes such as the endangered Nile Lechwe, Tiang, Reedbuck, and the world's largest population of White-eared Kob, estimated at around 1.2 million – animal populations comparable to Tanzania's better-known Serengeti National Park. Meanwhile the shallow water is frequented by crocodiles and hippopotami. In more upland areas the Sudd has been known as a historic habitat for the endangered Painted Hunting Dog, Lycaon pictus; however, this canid may be extirpated in the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudd
Sounds like a perfect spot for ospreys in the wet season when food is abundant, and there's plenty of shallow water which ospreys prefer. Just watch out for the crocs!
Kapa

Post by Kapa »

Birdie wrote:So come on folks from Germany!
Not all energy companies support this eagle project!

This is real humbug!

I have no idea where meierlein gets this information from!
Hello Birdie,
I can't speak for meierlein.
But there is even a national environment protection law, where paragraph 41 is instructing to
1. erect only new power poles and power lines which have protection against electric shock (special protection for birds)
2. back-fit already existing power poles and power lines according to the upper bird protection
It's quite a new law and the power suppliers must finish 2. by the end of 2012.
Find it here (in german): http://lexetius.com/BNatSchG/41

Additionally many, many voluntary cooperations in this area are found by simple google search.

Maybe it's not sufficient yet, yes. But it's a good start.
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Post by Birdie »

Goodness! I've been a member of NABU and Greenpeace since years, and be sure I know a lot about (not all, for sure :mrgreen: ) but never in my life all energy companies in Germany working together for ospreys or any other kind of wildlife!!
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Post by IKat »

Kukelke wrote: I agree on all this with you IKat, but... and it's a big but... ONLY if this is a side-effect of the main goal which is, and always should be, scientific research in order to find out what we humans can do to help these birds, to improve their survival rate and thus their reproduction rate (and which allows us, as said already, to have a peek too).

We should never allow that animals get these devices on their backs just for our personal entertainment only. Eventhough it would be wonderful if one day cameras would be small and light enough to be carried by an osprey, without causing any harm whatsoever to the bird, so we would be able to see the world from the osprey point of view, it would still be not right to do that only to entertain the people at home.

So, when these birds get transmitters for scientific purposes, as is the case here, we'll be happy to have a ride along. In any other case we should oppose it.



Thank you Kukelke.....I have so little knowledge of the European ospreys and their offspring that it was quite a joy to find this cam and forum. I have a little knowledge of our American ospreys (offspring, cam locations, migration routes) and am totally in awe when watching these young ones. There are several American Raptor organizations that have banded (ringed), placed nest cams and installed transmitters on migratory raptors. The results have been quite useful in tracking raptor species to migratory areas and tallying the wintering survival rate of some species. Global changes have altered some of the migratory tracks and patterns of some North American raptors. With some way to observe these birds unseen and without interfering greatly in their natural lives we have learned much. If the transmitters used are small, and they seem to be lightweight and unobtrusive, the birds here seem to not notice them at all. They haven't interfered with feeding, flight, breeding or the raising of the young. If it helps groups such as the one that Urmas aids then we have to be more accepting. Thank you again.... :D
S7-Nori-F?
S8-Uno-M?
S9-Elo-F?

"There is nothing in which the birds differ more from man than the way in which they can build and yet leave a
landscape as it was before." ~ Robert Lynd
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Post by Fee UK »

It's a wonderful site Jo. I have great admiration for Urmas and his associates for what they are doing. Also those in the UK and other countries.

My views are strongly on the side of tracking. As a few others have said, we cannot come up with solutions until we know what the problems are. The truth is that we will be very lucky if any of this Osprey family make it through migration - these two sites have some sad tales to tell ( http://www.dyfiospreyproject.com/tracker and http://www.roydennis.org/animals/raptor ... -tracking/ ) BUT sad though it is, it is finding out the causes of the various deaths that will provide clues to what may be done.

The majority of people who live in the ares where the birds migrate do not have the luxury of being able to indulge in conservation. Many of them will - like the adult Ospreys - rely on the rivers and lakes to provide food for their offspring and will do what they must to protect that. Many of them probably dread the arrival of these birds. Equally, their fishing methods are unlkely to be bird-friendly and many of the Ospreys will fall foul of discarded nets and lines. Personally, I don't think it would be right to put the birds before people.

So what do we do? It's a huge task, but so worthwhile if successful. I believe it needs two-way education - we in the 'First World' need to understand the problems of the indigenous peoples of the countries where our Ospreys winter; they in turn need to understand the value that these birds bring to us. And then we work on solutions.

There are some fine examples of what can be achieved here.

I hope the youngsters might be kitted up with trackers too. Following and supporting wildlife is wonderful, and this little Osprey family is a joy. But they are wild creatures, not pets.

And real life isn't a Disney movie.
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Post by Birdie »

the main forum is closed!
What the hell :rant:
Folks, :slap:
so, sorry, but hundrets (or maybe thousands) of peoples watching it!
Pls don't let you affect you , and pls! be patient!
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Post by Kukelke »

IKat wrote:Thank you Kukelke.....I have so little knowledge of the European ospreys and their offspring that it was quite a joy to find this cam and forum. I have a little knowledge of our American ospreys (offspring, cam locations, migration routes) and am totally in awe when watching these young ones. There are several American Raptor organizations that have banded (ringed), placed nest cams and installed transmitters on migratory raptors. The results have been quite useful in tracking raptor species to migratory areas and tallying the wintering survival rate of some species. Global changes have altered some of the migratory tracks and patterns of some North American raptors. With some way to observe these birds unseen and without interfering greatly in their natural lives we have learned much. If the transmitters used are small, and they seem to be lightweight and unobtrusive, the birds here seem to not notice them at all. They haven't interfered with feeding, flight, breeding or the raising of the young. If it helps groups such as the one that Urmas aids then we have to be more accepting. Thank you again.... :D
Until recently, only a couple of months ago, I didn't know much more about these birds other than that they are raptors specialised in hunting for fish, and that a military tilt-rotor plane is called after them (the V-22 Osprey). I even thought, because of their Dutch name "visarend" (which translates as "fish eagle"), that ospreys were true eagles, and would be closely related to the "zeearend" (litt: "sea eagle" - the Dutch word for white tailed eagle), which isn't the case at all. They form their own family, is one of the first things I learned, and since I became fascinated and wanted to learn more, I started to dig up any information I could lay my hands upon, also about projects in North America.
Myself I'm watching the Hellgate osprey cam at the University of Missoula, Montana too, mainly to compare behaviour of the chicks, since those are only slightly younger (a few days) than our Estonian chicks.
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/page.aspx?pid=2487

But maybe we shouldn't compare them, since North American ospreys (Pandion haliaetus carolinensis) are of another subspecies than European ospreys (the nominate Pandion haliaetus haliaetus), albeit the differences are small; the North American ospreys are slightly larger, darker bodied and have a paler breast. Perhaps there are also differences in migration processes and behaviour between the two subspecies? Yet again, only transmitters would be able to give us answers.

And yes, I want once again express my appreciation to Urmas and friends from the Eagle Club for all the great work they are doing.
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Post by alice44 »

Birdie do not worry about the main forum -- probably they will move some content here and reopen that for observations.
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Post by Kukelke »

Birdie wrote:the main forum is closed!
What the hell :rant:
Folks, :slap:
so, sorry, but hundrets (or maybe thousands) of peoples watching it!
Pls don't let you affect you , and pls! be patient!
The topic on our Estonian ospreys is only closed temporary to sort out the posts about transmitters which should be in this topic.

A small inconvenience for only a few brief moments, nothing to worry about. NancyM made a post about it in the other topic too. :2thumbsup:
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