How do you say - - ?

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alice44
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Re: How do you say - - ?

Post by alice44 »

Liis wrote:Some birds are "great" and some "greater" - as in great spotted woodpecker but greater flamingo.
Any explanation?
Numbers seem to be roughly equal (very unscientific look in Birdsearch engine).
A likewise unscientific look in the Virtuella floran turned up 2:1 for "greater" in plant names: greater dodder vs great pignut :puzzled:
from wikipedia
The Great Spotted Woodpecker (or Greater Spotted Woodpecker), Dendrocopos major, is a bird species of the woodpecker family (Picidae).
I am going to guess the difference is based on tradition -- it may be that some regions used one form and some the other, and it depends on where a bird was found. In some cases it may be the bird is just big -- Great Blue Heron (very much like a Grey Heron) and in other cases -- Greater White Fronted Goose (about which I know nothing) it may be there is a similar and smaller goose. (Canada Goose is just that despite being very similar and larger than a Brant Goose.)

I am trying to think how I can look this up in the Oxford English Dictionary -- which I can access online with a little help -- for free (and I can always walk to the library).
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Post by Liis »

My theory, sadly, is that there is no system or logic in using great & greater (nor less, lesser and small), and if there ever have been principles for it in "official" trivial names (if the more or less authoritative non-scientific names can be described so), they have been different over the years.
Greater is probably not bigger than great either.
No slur on English/British/American naming, other languages are surely not more logical or consistent!

EDIT: A quick check in the Estonian database of plant names turned up quite a few "väike" (small) and "suur" (great) - more great than small, too - but no smaller or greater at all. So it depends on the language structure and usage: to say "suurem" or "väiksem" feels strange in a name, the comparative just isn't used there.
No way out then but to learn the individual great, greater, lesser, small names ...
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Post by NancyM »

I tend to agree with Liis that there is sometimes no apparent rhyme or reason to the common names given to birds (or other animals, for that matter). However, some organizations take this very seriously.

I found this list of bird names: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/index.html
and thought, well, I'll just have a look at the woodpeckers: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-woodpeckers.html
where I discovered that the Lesser and Greater Goldenback belong to two different genera (that was a surprise!).

Lesser Goldenback - Dinopium benghalense
Greater Goldenback - Chrysocolaptes lucidus

I suspect that at one time they were assigned to the same genus, and then one was moved when more data became available.

For Liis, there is even a page of updates to the English names: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-en.html

On another forum, we would be discussing whether the Giant Panda Bear is a bear or not :whistling:
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Post by Liis »

There are some great names (no pun intended!) - I found "lesser wagtail tyrant" and "greater wagtail tyrant".
One more wrinkle: it is "lesser" , not "smaller"
bociany wrote: I tend to agree with Liis that there is sometimes no apparent rhyme or reason to the common names given to birds (or other animals, for that matter). However, some organizations take this very seriously.
There surely doesn't seem to be any (consistent) reasons for the real folk names, but the reasons are probably often things that we have totally lost contact with.
For the "authorised" own-language names, cheers and good luck to the organizations that try to keep order!
Interesting thing: we get more order in naming, while fewer and fewer recognise for instance even very common native plants.
bociany wrote:I found this list of bird names: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/index.html
and thought, well, I'll just have a look at the woodpeckers: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-woodpeckers.html
where I discovered that the Lesser and Greater Goldenback belong to two different genera (that was a surprise!).
Lesser Goldenback - Dinopium benghalense
Greater Goldenback - Chrysocolaptes lucidus
I suspect that at one time they were assigned to the same genus, and then one was moved when more data became available.
There is an absolutely amazing number of woodpecker species. As usual, I had no idea ...
bociany wrote:For Liis, there is even a page of updates to the English names: http://www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-en.html
Thanks! :bow: I rely on you all to read it and correct me ... :mrgreen:
bociany wrote: On another forum, we would be discussing whether the Giant Panda Bear is a bear or not :whistling:
Whether it is or not, or whether it should be allowed to be called so?
I was going to write, the first shouldn't be a problem with modern DNA analysis, but of course the analysis still doesn't decide for you where the line for being bear goes. I have been in some discussions on which and what amount of differences make an apple variety just that, or only an individual variation within the variety ...
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Post by Liis »

How do you say ...
what the willow tit says http://www.looduskalender.ee/node/5994, and what does it say, really :puzzled: :book: ?
Estonian Looduskalender article: "di-dää-dää, di-dää-dää"

It wasn't in my dictionaries. I thought I would just leave it but, well, might do a quick check by Google. So:
Wikipedia says: zee, zee, zee ipsee, ipsee , and moreover, calls it Poecile montanus.
British Garden birds: buzzing nasal call, like "tchay-tchay-tchay", … song is "pee-oo pee-oo"
BTO.org: a thin ‘zi-zurr-zurr-zurr’ and an equally thin ‘zee-zee-zee’; Marsh Tit: … a clear ‘pitchou’
Swedish Wikipedia: Varninglätet är ett utdraget "tsitsidäää". Sången består av "klagande" pipanden "dju-dju-dju-dju-dju"
Sveriges Ornitologiska Förening: Locklätet ett raspande typiskt ”täh” eller ”pitjä”.
German Wikipedia: breites gequetschtes „dääh“, manchmal auch „zizidäääh“. Der Gesang besteht aus fünf bis sechs absinkenden – daher melancholisch anmutenden – Pfeiflauten „dju-dju-dju-dju-dju“.
Natur-Lexikon, German: Stimmfühlungs- oder Warnruf nach einem leisen „zisi“ ein breites „däh-däh-däh-däh“,
It all might of course sound more alike than it looks if it is said aloud in the respective languages ...
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Post by NancyM »

I am staying out of this one, Liis! :wave:
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Post by Olga »

:wave: Liis, in Finnish Willow tit's (Hömötiainen) song is most commonly an energetig and a zippy song:tsi-tsi-täh-täh, But in the springtime their song is different. In my book it said that it is a bit sorrowfull tyy tyy tyy.
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Post by Liis »

Olga wrote::wave: Liis, in Finnish Willow tit's (Hömötiainen) song is most commonly an energetig and a zippy song:tsi-tsi-täh-täh, But in the springtime their song is different. In my book it said that it is a bit sorrowfull tyy tyy tyy.
Thanks!
It seems birds have calls, and songs. So the sorrowful tyy tyy tyy is often labelled as song, and tsi-tsi-täh or di-däää, call.
More contributions, please?
Bociany, you might be excused, it seems that the willow tit doesn't occur in North America. BUT if so - how come that the American Ornithologists' Union have decided that it shoud be renamed Poecile montanus, eh?
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Post by NancyM »

I am going to avoid that question, Liis :whistling:
but ask one of my own.

Can anyone translate this phrase from the Latin? I can translate each word but not the meaning. :book:

"Viro in Omnes Hominum Kontiones Justo"
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Post by Olga »

I have an English birdbook *) where the song of Willow tit is told quite meticulously, it describes the song of Willow Tit in English, - compared with the song of a March Tit as it reminds it:

Willow tit, Parus montanus. Very similar to Marsh tit, but crown more sooty and has sometimes obscure small pale paths on the secondaries.. etc.

Typical call note a grating, nasal 'tchay' or 'aig', sometimes precede by 'chick' or 'chickit', but never by March Tit's 'pitchüü', also a charasteristic thin 'eez-eez-eez' lacking from Marsh Tit's vocabylary. Never scolds like a Matsh Tit.

Willow Tit has two distinct songs, a liquid garden-warbler-like one unlike the song of any other tit and with a rather spasmodic delivery, and more ringing, but slightly sad and wood-warbler-like 'piu-piu-piu'.

*) From a birdbook named the Birds of Britain and Europe with North Africa and Middle East - by Heinzel-Fitter-Parslow, Collins St Place, London. :D

This bird is one of my favorites. I'll add the photo of it here, taken by Arne Ader, from Looduskalender.

Image
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Post by Bisky »

bociany wrote: Can anyone translate this phrase from the Latin? I can translate each word but not the meaning. :book:

"Viro in Omnes Hominum Kontiones Justo"
Hello Bo! :wave:

I was curious about this myself, so I asked my son who is a Latin teacher. He also is a bit stumped by this one. Here is his reply:

"Is it from an eastern European country, or somewhere with Eastern Orthodox influence? Is there any context to go along with this?

My best guess is "to/for the/a just man (viro justo) in all assemblies/meetings (omnes kontiones) of men (hominum)"

I'm not sure what "kontiones" would translate to, as it depends heavily on time period and location. And I've never seen it spelled with a K rather than a C.

It has a very strange word order, and must either come from poetry or be a motto of some sort."


This probably doesn't help, but at least you know you are not alone in your quandary!
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Post by alice44 »

As a kind of aside -- Isn't this the coolest place -- from bird songs to Latin and every thing in between!
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Post by NancyM »

Bisky wrote: Hello Bo! :wave:

I was curious about this myself, so I asked my son who is a Latin teacher. He also is a bit stumped by this one. Here is his reply:

"Is it from an eastern European country, or somewhere with Eastern Orthodox influence? Is there any context to go along with this?

My best guess is "to/for the/a just man (viro justo) in all assemblies/meetings (omnes kontiones) of men (hominum)"

I'm not sure what "kontiones" would translate to, as it depends heavily on time period and location. And I've never seen it spelled with a K rather than a C.

It has a very strange word order, and must either come from poetry or be a motto of some sort."


This probably doesn't help, but at least you know you are not alone in your quandary!
Oh, Bisky, thank you for asking your son (I am happy to know that Latin is still being taught!)

He is on the right track with his questions - the request for translation came from someone who is studying his Polish ancestry. He said the quote came from "references to a particular surname in the Golden Book of Polish Gentry" (Nobility). I am reasonably certain that it is a family motto.

My poor attempt came up with something about a just man being a hero to all - but I am just making that up!
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Post by macdoum »

bociany wrote:
Can anyone translate this phrase from the Latin? I can translate each word but not the meaning. :book:

"Viro in Omnes Hominum Kontiones Justo"
One sister of mine (we all did Latin at school) says it would roughly translate to
Good luck/life To All Mankind. Like something you would get in a Christmas Greeting Card.
But its definately a language mix,not solely Latin
(even our 'friend' Google is lost in either Italian/spanish or Portugese etc; I didn't try any of the eastern languages. :unsure: :peek: )
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Post by NancyM »

thanks, macdoum!

Earlier, I tried Google Translate and got the message "Google cannot translate Latin yet"

and the other Latin-English translation gadgets that I tried made no sense of it either. :dunno:
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Post by Patsycat »

I found one translator that insisted that Viro means Boatmen - which didn't help!
An extended meaning of Justo - is a "salt of the earth" type person - stand no nonsense = fair!
Leading to the idea that the hero in question is a man of the people!

And now my brain hurts!! :D :puzzled: :book:
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Post by NancyM »

Patsycat wrote:Leading to the idea that the hero in question is a man of the people!
Oh, my researcher will like this translation! Except that he is probably hoping his ancestor is a nobleman, not a boatman (just kidding).

thanks, Pat!
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Post by macdoum »

bociany wrote: Oh, my researcher will like this translation! Except that he is probably hoping his ancestor is a nobleman, not a boatman (just kidding).

thanks, Pat!
Bociany,I love a 'mystery' and would love to see that solved.. :nod:
Has the person tried 'Heraldry' sites.. must be something on the subject on the WWW.?
ex. Family mottos, and like.
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Post by alice44 »

macdoum wrote: Bociany,I love a 'mystery' and would love to see that solved.. :nod:
Has the person tried 'Heraldry' sites.. must be something on the subject on the WWW.?
ex. Family mottos, and like.
I am curious about the time frame for the quote.
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Post by Liis »

Or might the sense - not literal translation - be something like "Primus inter pares", First among equals (or peers; since one probably didn't care all that much about being first among muckrakers or cowherds ... Not enough for a motto anyway )
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