looduskalender.ee

I do agree, what's the use of such torment? just because we, people, are curious???
What is the surplus value to know whére they fly, eat or die? is it worth all the trouble and stress for the bird, isn't ringing not enough??
I can't appreciate this

We just have to leave them alone, not destroy there lebensraum, not using chemicals/toxicals in there habitat en absolutely not shoot them (like some hunters do in our country because they see them as rivals)
Nature is special and very capable of regulate itself, as long as we, people leave it in peace.
What is interesting for us, can be destructive for these birds.
(do they know for sure that the parnter still wants the one with the transmitter???
does it bother him/here? is it dangerous in any way (thunder/lightning?) a.s.o.
To be short: I hope they will nót place that stupide thing, just to want to know everything, I hope the can't catch the bird to do that!!

Hi jopie,

I, and I think most, if not all of us, do agree on that it isn't a pretty sight to see a bird with a transmitter on it's back. But I don't think the birds are bothered much by it, otherwise no sane scientist with love for the birds would ever attach one.

In order to understand their migration routes it is -unfortunately- necessary to do this. I do know that many British ospreys have one, and that similar projects are also run in Norway among others. Maybe our German friends here know about similar projects in Germany? So now they start to understand a bit more about the migration routes of North and West European ospreys to West Africa, and the dangers they meet.

I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the migration routes of East European and Baltic ospreys are as well documented. Also, our ospreys most likely will take a route via the Balkans and the Middle East to the Red Sea and East Africa, so you can't just use the data obtained by British ospreys for example.

For, lets just face the grim facts, only 40% of the British juvenile ospreys who migrate to Africa, return to the place of birth. Just to give an example.
It would be good to know what the numbers of East European and Baltic ospreys are in this regard. Where are the dangers? What kind of dangers? What can we humans do to improve the chances of survival and to make them thrive?

These fantastic birds are the top-predators in their food chain. If they thrive, their whole ecosystem thrives.

Being from the Netherlands myself, just like you jopie, we both know that ospreys haven't raised chicks here in a very long time, if ever. But the Netherlands are an important stop over for migrating Scandinavian ospreys, and the last decade or so, some (probably) Scandinavian birds, returning juveniles, have "oversummered" here, and even built nests. A (re-)colonisation of the Netherlands seems to be in progress. Wouldn't it be fantastic to have our "own" Dutch ospreys? There are already erected some nesting platforms on suitable places and other measures have been taken, but a lot about osprey migration and recolonisation, or plain colonisation of new areas, is still unknown.
Also in this regard it could help with transmitters.
http://www.rekel.nl/visarenden/nederlan ... ssen_1.htm
http://www.farmlandbirds.net/en/content ... -nederland (article in Dutch saying possible breeding attempts in the Netherlands)

We have to do what we can to preserve these birds and to make them thrive (just as the rest of nature) for the generations to come after us. After all, we only 'lease' the world, including ospreys, from our children, and if transmitters can help so our children and grandchildren also will be able to enjoy these birds, then so be it.

My 50 cents.

Thank you, Kukelke, for this really good post! In order to prepare the habitat the birds need, we have to know more about them and their life, how they migrate, when and where, what are the dangers (sadly enough human being is the greatest danger nowadays on their long migration). A transmitter is a good way to learn more about them, if they come back to the area where they are born etc. Ringing them is a small part as well.
I don't think that Urmas, who really loves "his eagles" would ever harm them! Juta already posted a link to the picture of the new smaller transmitters they are going to use, and I don't think they will be that disturbing! And - additionally - we will be able to follow such birds on the Migration Map in autumn.

This is true, Birdie, and some of the most valuable information came from a White Stork called "Prinzesschen" (if I remember the name correctly) who flew with the transmitter for many years and when she finally died of old age and exhaustion in South Africa, the bird and transmitter were found and the people in Germany informed.
As far as I know, raptor specialist B.-U. Meyburg is at the moment busy putting transmitters on LSE in North Germany, and a lot of the facts we know about LSE come from "his" birds!

I think (I see) that Jopi is allready offline, so I like to react on your story.
Do you realy think there are no risks involved in placing such an transmitter? (read my earlyer comment on that above)
Do you realy think that just ONE gouvernement will replace windmills or factorys or whátever because of migrating birds?

It all is in OUR benefit, nót in the benefit of the birds, we wánt to do it because we cán do it and because we want to satisfy our curiosity, we like to play God and the animals just have to addept on all the terrible things we allready did to them, not the other way around.
So, I say NO! not:"so be it" (but I don't think they will listen)

I did a quick search and found this here: ( I hope quoting the full text here is not against any laws, if yes, I'll remove it again)
The information provided about the transmitter might not be like the one KK uses!

http://raptorresource.org/forum/index.php?topic=781.0;wap2

Transmitter FAQS

(1/1)

mrsfalcon:
Why are you trapping and transmittering the eagles?
RRP decided to band the eaglets to help us determine where they go and whether or not they survive. Initially, we were only going to band one eagle. However, following today's success, we have decided to try to band more of them. We don't know whether we will end up banding and transmitting all of the eagles or not. We will see what happens in the weeks to come. Banding has yielded a great deal of valuable scientific information on bird migration, survivability, and reproductive success. Bands and transmitters help us protect important bird areas (witness Audubon's IBA program), identify threats, and determine the health of a species as a whole.

We did not make this decision lightly. We determined early on that we would not band the young in the nest, since we didn’t feel we could get to the nest without jeopardizing the eaglets. Once we decided to band and transmitter young after fledging, we involved an eagle biologist with years of experience in banding and trapping young and adult eagles. Bob researched banding very carefully, and was not able to find any evidence that banding affected the survivability or reproductive success of eagles – a finding supported by our own years of banding young falcons.

We understand that people are concerned about the eagles and our motivation for banding. However, at our core, we have always been about science, conservation, and education. Banding the eaglet will not harm it and will aid the service of all three areas.

What did you use to trap the eaglet?
We have been working with two traps. One is a large remote controlled bow nest and the other is called a Pandam trap. We caught the eaglet with the Pandam trap. The Pandam is a 36" diameter hoop made out of 5/8" steel. Large monofilament nooses were fixed around the circumference of the steel hoop. Two trout were placed in the center of the trap. When D1 finished eating a trout that Bob set out near the traps, she walked over to the Pandam and was immediately caught in a noose.

Is the transmitter hurting the eaglet?
It is not. We have been monitoring the eaglet in person and via the satellite data. D1's behavior has not changed, and her parents and siblings are not treating her any differently. She is flying well and is still able to procure food. Here is a picture of D1 in the nest with her sibling. These two spent a great deal of time together prior to the transmitter, and that has not changed.

Will the transmitter act as a lightning rod?
No. Here is why:

1. The transmitter does not provide a path to ground for lightning.
2. The transmitter does not change the eagle's electrical potential.

Lightning or grounding rods are taller than the things they are sitting on and provide a very firm connection to ground. To flow, electricity has to have somwhere to come from, and somewhere to go to - hence ground. Unlike trees and buildings, the transmitter does not provide a path to ground along which electricity can flow.


What does the transmitter look like?
Check out this video to see it on D1: http://youtu.be/fJ7CrREEf0A

How much does the transmitter weigh?
The transmitter weighs 2 ounces. The eagles total weight is 14 pounds, so the transmitter is .8% of her total body weight.

Where can I view D1's Travels?
Check out http://www.raptorresource.org/maps/latest.php for the latest report on D1.

Will the transmitter fall off?
The transmitter is not designed to fall off. Eagles do sometimes manage to remove their transmitters, so we will not say that it will never fall off. However, it is not designed to.

How is the transmitter powered?
The transmitter is powered via a small battery and a solar cell. The solar cell charges the battery, which keeps the data system transmitting for longer than it would via battery alone.

Who made the transmitter?
The transmitter is an Argos transmitter. Argos specializes in environmental and wildlife tracking and monitoring. To learn more, visit their website at http://www.argos-system.org

How does the transmitter work?
The transmitter is programmed to send signals at periodic intervals to NOAA and Met-Op satellites flying in polar orbits. The satellites pick up the signals and store them on-board or relay them in real-time back to earth. On average, the platform or transmitter is visible to the satellite for ten minutes. Depending on how the transmitter is programmed and the quality of the connection, the satellite might receive anywhere from 1 to more than 4 messages from the transmitter. It takes approximately 100 minutes for the satellite to revolved around the earth.Receiving stations relay data from satellites to processing centers.A processing center collects and processes the data before sending it to us.
What is a 'confidence number' - ie, why are some fixes better than others?
A fix (location) is classified as one of seven categories. The categories are classified according to estimated error and the number of messages received during a satellite pass.
LC Estimated Error No. of messages received
3 <250m 4 or more
2 250m – 500m 4 or more
1 500m – 1500m 4 or more
0 >1500m 4 or more
A No accuracy estimation 3
B No accuracy estimation 1 or 2
Z Invalid location

Jasmijntje and Jopie,
I personally agree, that such intervention is ambivalent.
Yet persons and governments are not persuaded by moral words. The example of the Prinzesschen is excellent for showing, how the information detected by one single animal can help change the sensibility of many to first get the knowledge and second to take action in order to protect. Here in Germany many people (from preschooler to elderly) were informed by media, events and schools.
Would it be pure curiosity an would there be no need to protect the animals, such antennas shouldn't be used.
But that's not how it is.
And I also think, the colleagues of Urmas an he himself are totally aware of what the do and what they need to do. They love those animals and spend so much time to collect information. If nothing else they gave us this fantastic opportunity to watch this offspring grow up.
I think it's not fair to judge.
Bye
Kapa


Urmas,
sorry, I saw your post too late.

All,
can the "real" maiden flight take place any time of the day or is it more likely to happen in the early morning? I am talking about really leaving the tree.

NO WAY! URMAS, PLEASE CONFIRM YOU WON"T DO ANY TRANSMITTERS ON THESE BIRDS! Please... just don't, my god...

Just to remind everybody - those transmitters won't attract lightning to the birds - see the FAQs on transmitters I have posted on the previous page!

It is everything about us again, right? We want to know! O yes, we want to know! we will put info on web or write a book... And what?
We know where they (osprey) go for winter but we won't stop stupid hunters to shoot them. Such people do harm not only for ospreys but animal as well as all live nature. Look at the people who are so cruel with their pets: dogs, cats, farm animals. We know everything about dogs or cats but we can't prevent them from being beaten, brutally killed. So I don't want to be involved in anything what wild nature makes upset... Instead of putting transmitters lets look around and be brave to say a word when we see somebody putting trash in the fields, forrest or harming animals or pets... It will be the first step into a BIG CHANGE. Such forums are the best not only for us, adults, but for our kids as well. They see wild birds and they fall in love with them as they are so beautiful. To be honest with you i don't want to see our birds with some "equipment". I would accept it if there would be necessary, but now it is not! Not at all... it is just about us that we want to know from which late Madis brings the fishes... It is so sad guys...

Hello Jasmijntje (and others strongly opposed to these transmitters),

Yes, I do really think that no risks are involved. And yes, I do really think that gouvernments will actually act and try to do what's possible to protect migrating routes, nesting sites and things like that. In fact, just to give you an example: when the use of DDT, a pesticide, was banned in the USA, it was among other things because of data about a declining osprey population. (more about it here for example: http://blog.baybackpack.com/?p=1355)

In our own country, the Netherlands, the protection of what's left of nature stands very strong, and pieces of land are given back to nature again, thus creating new and more opportunities for wildlife. National parks are connected with wildlife corridors, nesting sites are protected, and so on, and so forth. So yes, gouvernments do listen. At least in our part of the world.

All that isn't done for our benefit, but for the benefit of nature, in this case the benefit of ospreys. We humans have in the past (and still do unfortunately) made a mess of nature, destroyed a lot of it, but the tide is turning. More and more people are aware of what we've done in the past and want to make up for that as much and as good as possible. Not because we like "to play god", but because we're becoming aware of our -often very negative- role in the ecosystem.
In order to be able to restore as much of the damage done by humans, we simply need exact data about nature, about these fantastic ospreys in this case, so we can protect them as good as we can and offer them the best possibilities to breed and to secure next generations of ospreys. One of the things we need more data on, is their migration. Where do they go? Where do they rest? Where do they forage? How do human structures affect migrating ospreys? Where is it safe for them to stay, and where not? And probably many other questions too.
When we know more about that, we can contribute and take action to improve their chances of survival and reproduction.

This isn't done to torture individual birds or so, but this is on the contrary done to secure a future for the entire species, so all ospreys can benefit from it.
The birds themselves aren't bothered by it. Transmitters have been attached to a huge number of wild animals before and have given us lots of information. Urmas and friends, who love these birds just as much as we do, if not more (it takes a special breed of people to be committed to a good case like theirs, and I admire them a lot for their work ), would never do anything which would harm the birds in any way. I'm 110% convinced about that.


I hope you'll understand why this is a good thing after all, when you consider the whole pcture, eventhough a transmitter isn't a pretty sight. Their rings aren't a pretty sight either, but also rings give a lot of valuable information about migrating birds. It all helps us to understand, and when we understand we can help them.

Cheers!

Hello Gitana,
that's not exactly true. It's a long road to persuade (illegal) hunters not to kill animals, but there are quite a lot examples where steadily information changed things. Not anytime and not anywhere, but it happens.
To make "wild nature upset" it is enough to lead our usual life: go by car or bus, buy things, that are delivered over far distances, and so on. I state that everybody here directly or indirectly influences the wild. But there are some ways to decrease this influence. And one of them is research an information.

19.15

Reading back all the comments pro and contra I just like to say a few things:

it is not that I am opposing against scientific projects as such, I am opposing against "scientific projects" at random.
Not long before every bird has a transmitter so WE would know where it is going and for how long, etc. etc.

More useful an nicer to our birds would be if there is some kind of coördination between countries and better still worldwide to prevent the birds from harm than becoming a jungle of antenna's instead.
"Is an osprey 25 kilometers North, South, West or East from this nest migrating to a different place, in a different way, than our Osprey's?"

And the effect?
We do not even prevent our own children against pollution, etc, so what measures do we expect from governements which harm an Osprey?????
Or are we going to relocate windmills, factories etc???
This is not scientific, this looks like a prestige project , and I am very disappointed. Never would have expected Urmas wanting to be part of this.

I think you are judging very hard. On what grounds can you decide that this is not scientific? Do you have all the facts? And on what grounds do you build your opinion about Urmas (why pointing at just him, they are a group)? I'm personally just a forum member, reading other members thoughts about those lovely birds. The Eagle Club has made it possible for us to follow this osprey family by spending a great amount of time and money (some of it from personal budget from what I understand) to rig a web cam, keep it connected to the internet 24/7 and letting us all watch.

Like some other members you say: More uesful woukld be... and suggest other things to do for the wild life. Well, then. Why don't you star a forum, begin to raise money and start a project your self? Instead of judging those who actually DO something. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I think you judge to hard on to little facts. For instance: How to "coördination between countries" if you don't know which countries the osprey passes on their way?

Personally I trust The Eagle Club fully (I prefere to see them as a dedicated group and not point out specific individs) and I'm sure that these good ornitologs wouldn't harm any animals.

Edit: I agree with will(y) - this discusson should preferably be held in another thread.

Hi jopie,
I think it is very important to know as much as we can about the wildlife. Only if we know, we can protect it.
A little example : 10 or 20 years before no one knows exactly what the "Wattenmeer" (Wadden Sea) means to all the population there and to all population of birds who uses it for a stay while their flights. But yet, after a lot of experiences (also with transmittered birds) we know about. And yet we protect it and it is a World Cultural Heritage
Something like that can also be happen in countries where "our" birds will stay in the winter. But therefor we have to show these countries what we are talking about and how to save the environment. We have to give them informations about ospreys (or other birds) and how important they are for all of us.
jopie, I hope you will stay here with us, and watch the chicks flying!

EDIT : Sorry will(y) and lunan, I have seen your posts too late, and yes, I agree with you. It would be fine to talk about in another forum

I think I put most of the transmitter discussion posts here. Those on the Osprey Webcam Discussion will be removed later.
Please continue here -

My very curiousity is why I am here. I want to know about these birds, I like watching them grow, I love seeing the parents interact with them, I like seeing what they eat, how they interact with one another.....seeing who is strong enough to make it....and sadly who may not. I WANT Piret to make it to her wintering grounds....I WANT her to find enough fish to never be hungry.....I WANT her to come home next spring and give me the opportunity to see her again.....and of course I want to see her new nestlings. I want her to be strong and survive. And perhaps, just perhaps this small device will help me (yes, selfish me) know where she is and that she is surviving and because of this I may be blessed enough to see her next spring again. Is it ideal? No, it is not. But, it may help to make the next generation of Osprey stronger by helping us to know where they go....and where they do not go....if they have enough food and survival instincts to make it in the wild. I have "followed" two of the North American bald eagles....two females with transmitters....watched them progress around the perimeter of their parents territory...followed the fishing areas they frequent....watched as the lack of rain in one area caused them to instinctively search for better fishing areas....and they are surviving. Hopefully they will choose mates and produce their own young this coming spring. But, it has been fascinating to track and follow them on their journeys. If that makes me a selfish human I am sorry. But, I will keep watching and hoping they make it in the wild.

Thanks Jo

493.408 people would - click here:

I have posted this video earlier in the WtE database, and I want to share it also here.

Good idea to make a new topic, Jo! It is a very interesting discussion in my opinion. And very difficult/ambivalent - I can not even find a solution when I discuss it with myself... I don´t like to see birds with those equipment, but to be honest, the video above is one of the most fascinating clips I´ve ever seen. I don´t like to see birds with an antenna, and as far as I know a clearly visible transmitter can mean an increased risk for a bird to be killed during the migration, but I spent hours with reading about migration routes of Lesser Spotted Eagles, fitted with such transmitters. (I know, Piret´s transmitter has no antenna.)

I´m sure it was a horrible shock for Piret to get trapped, but on the other hand - if I compare her life with the life of the majority of the chickens which delivered millions of eggs for breakfast today, I think even with a transmitter she has a phantastic life (and I say this even though I realize that it means to compare apples with oranges). Urmas ist the same Urmas which was our osprey-forum hero a few days ago. And without Urmas and his colleagues we all would have to travel to Estonia and to climb into pretty high trees if we would want to have a look in our beloved (eagle) nests. (Estonia must be beautiful, but I´m a lousy tree climber, so I´m very glad that the "eagle men" from Kotkaklubi and other people do this for us. )

Fortunately we are able to discuss other very controversial topics like hunting here at Looduskalender. I´m sure we can never find a solution, but I hope we can discuss also this theme. I still totally agree with mikke, who recently wrote "Watching the family life of these birds has been a great privilege and inspiration, and technically speaking it is the best nature cam ever." (Best wishes to you mikke, if you are around.)