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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 5:23 pm 
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Starling wrote:
Gitana, I understood the transmitter is already put to Piret today. It is without antenna. We haven´t seen Piret yet.


And Madis too. The chicks are all the day alone.


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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 5:25 pm 
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Urmas wrote:
We caught female (though preferred male, but he was too cautious) about 100m of from nest site, put the transmitter (model without of antenna, 30g, with soft closure) and released her about 13:30, she flew without of any troubles.


Asteria, Madis is without transmitter, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 6:25 pm 
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Quote:
Welcome here Cara! :)
Please don´t change your picture just because most of the members have bird pictures in avatars. I think putting your own pic tells much about your brave personality and attitude. And I´ve seen also a few others here with their own pictures.
I also share your worries about the migration, many of the birds are shoot on their way to the South, it´s very tragic. :( I wish you pleasant times here in the forum! :)


Hello Starling,
thank you for your welcome greeting and also for your kind words. I am sure this forum will give me pleasant times because we all here share the same love and that's a very warm feeling! :-)
Same wishes to you and lots of greetings to Helsinki!

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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 6:51 pm 
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alice44 wrote:
Starling wrote:
Cara wrote:

Oh :shock: after registration about 1 week ago I selected a pic of myself as avatar pic, then I noticed that all of you selected a pic of an animal (mostly birds) and I wanted to change my pic. But then after I only had time for my daily work - included my addicted watching of our family and reading this forum, of course :whistling:
And now I noticed that I posted my comment without changing my pic.
I will change soon :rolleyes:


Welcome here Cara! :)
Please don´t change your picture just because most of the members have bird pictures in avatars. I think putting your own pic tells much about your brave personality and attitude. And I´ve seen also a few others here with their own pictures.
I also share your worries about the migration, many of the birds are shoot on their way to the South, it´s very tragic. :( I wish you pleasant times here in the forum! :)


Cara I am with Starling use whatever image you want and don't worry what other people do. However, mine is normally a cat, but since this is a bird forum I chose a bird that people can hardly see. :slap: I stole your smiley so that I could have one.

About nature being not so natural, that is true and it ads lots of worries to the migration. With luck as we learn more, maybe humans will change our behaviours to make the human part not so dangerous -- here we are changing night lighting a little, to make migration less dangerous. Of course trying to understand what these birds need of nature and trying to learn how to help them, is part of the reason for this cam.



Hello alice44,
also THANKS to you for your reply comment. Ahm, well, to be honest: avi pics are very small here and my first look at your pic was: "Ah, a Tapir - but with unusual coloration and a weird mouth, looks like a beak O_O ....." :laugh:
But 2nd look I recognized it's a birdie ;-D
And you used the stolen smiley very well fitting ;-) :-D
So many animal and nature protection organisations around the whole world try to change human's behaviour and there's to see successes, indeed! But it's a very long way until those successes will help nature and animals as much as it's needed (because it's a problem with the governments). But indeed there's to see a tiny smoldering light in the darkness :-)
Kind greetings to Oregon :-)

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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:15 pm 
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"Our" ospreys here are part of a project called ESTLAT - that's involving already two countries! Without this project, we would not even see this nest! I am also sure that Urmas is not going on a holiday to Scotland, but to meet and exchange with colleagues doing the same kind of work there.
Repeatedly the "Loch of the Lowes" project (also Scotland) was mentioned here as role model, place to look up things we did not know etc. They put transmitters on birds!

And last - it is not so long ago, that "ornithology" meant, the interested ornithologist shot down the bird of interest, got it stuffed, collected eggs and chicks for the collection etc. We have come a long way and I think it is a good way, even more as even ordinary people, like most of us are here, have the opportunity to study and learn (and also distribute what we learnt, at least I am doing!) about the life of these birds! And all this without even leaving our living rooms and walk into the wood! Let alone climb on a tree and sit on it for 8 hours without moving!

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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:31 pm 
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Hi to all again :wave:

I'm sure we all like to have Jopie , Jasmijntje , and gitana back here at the forum.
We all have different opinions, but that should not prevent them to write here. If they still want :puzzled: but I'm sure they want! :nod:
I prefer to have the humorous side back here, and the informative one :nod:

My pic now (from a few hours ago) :

"Ever watch where your siblings are"
Image

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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:35 pm 
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If members feel that more discussion of the transmitter rights and wrongs is needed, w can start another topic. Please post here if you wish to continue that discussion.


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 Post subject: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:52 pm 
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Members have expressed strong feelings about the rights and wrongs of placing transmitters on birds.

Please post here, rather than on the Osprey Webcam Discussion topic, if you feel there is more to be said.


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:55 pm 
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jopie wrote:
13.49

Then I am going to say goodbye to you all!!!

Not because I am not having it my may, but because it makes me very, very depressed to see a bird like this :cry:

I really can not watch a bird with an antenna on its back, it is so demeaning.

So, goodbye to you all, I wish you all the best!!!! :wave:


I do agree, what's the use of such torment? just because we, people, are curious???
What is the surplus value to know whére they fly, eat or die? :puzzled: is it worth all the trouble and stress for the bird, isn't ringing not enough??
I can't appreciate this :banghead:


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 7:59 pm 
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We just have to leave them alone, not destroy there lebensraum, not using chemicals/toxicals in there habitat en absolutely not shoot them (like some hunters do in our country because they see them as rivals)
Nature is special and very capable of regulate itself, as long as we, people leave it in peace.
What is interesting for us, can be destructive for these birds.
(do they know for sure that the parnter still wants the one with the transmitter???
does it bother him/here? is it dangerous in any way (thunder/lightning?) a.s.o.
To be short: I hope they will nót place that stupide thing, just to want to know everything, I hope the can't catch the bird to do that!!


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 Post subject: Re: ESTLAT Osprey Nest Webcam Discussion 2012
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:01 pm 
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A quick question.....where will these youngsters migrate to? And is there a lot known (posted info somewhere????) as to the conditions where they will spend their winter season? Wooded, forrested area?......Seaside area???????....How has the weather been this year in their targeted migratory area (s)? Dry, rainy? Does anyone know where I can get some information? Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:01 pm 
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jopie wrote:
13.49

Then I am going to say goodbye to you all!!!

Not because I am not having it my may, but because it makes me very, very depressed to see a bird like this :cry:

I really can not watch a bird with an antenna on its back, it is so demeaning.

So, goodbye to you all, I wish you all the best!!!! :wave:

Hi jopie,

I, and I think most, if not all of us, do agree on that it isn't a pretty sight to see a bird with a transmitter on it's back. But I don't think the birds are bothered much by it, otherwise no sane scientist with love for the birds would ever attach one.

In order to understand their migration routes it is -unfortunately- necessary to do this. I do know that many British ospreys have one, and that similar projects are also run in Norway among others. Maybe our German friends here know about similar projects in Germany? So now they start to understand a bit more about the migration routes of North and West European ospreys to West Africa, and the dangers they meet.

I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the migration routes of East European and Baltic ospreys are as well documented. Also, our ospreys most likely will take a route via the Balkans and the Middle East to the Red Sea and East Africa, so you can't just use the data obtained by British ospreys for example.

For, lets just face the grim facts, only 40% of the British juvenile ospreys who migrate to Africa, return to the place of birth. Just to give an example.
It would be good to know what the numbers of East European and Baltic ospreys are in this regard. Where are the dangers? What kind of dangers? What can we humans do to improve the chances of survival and to make them thrive?

These fantastic birds are the top-predators in their food chain. If they thrive, their whole ecosystem thrives.

Being from the Netherlands myself, just like you jopie, we both know that ospreys haven't raised chicks here in a very long time, if ever. But the Netherlands are an important stop over for migrating Scandinavian ospreys, and the last decade or so, some (probably) Scandinavian birds, returning juveniles, have "oversummered" here, and even built nests. A (re-)colonisation of the Netherlands seems to be in progress. Wouldn't it be fantastic to have our "own" Dutch ospreys? There are already erected some nesting platforms on suitable places and other measures have been taken, but a lot about osprey migration and recolonisation, or plain colonisation of new areas, is still unknown.
Also in this regard it could help with transmitters.
http://www.rekel.nl/visarenden/nederlan ... ssen_1.htm
http://www.farmlandbirds.net/en/content ... -nederland (article in Dutch saying possible breeding attempts in the Netherlands)

We have to do what we can to preserve these birds and to make them thrive (just as the rest of nature) for the generations to come after us. After all, we only 'lease' the world, including ospreys, from our children, and if transmitters can help so our children and grandchildren also will be able to enjoy these birds, then so be it.

My 50 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:02 pm 
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Thank you, Kukelke, for this really good post! In order to prepare the habitat the birds need, we have to know more about them and their life, how they migrate, when and where, what are the dangers (sadly enough human being is the greatest danger nowadays on their long migration). A transmitter is a good way to learn more about them, if they come back to the area where they are born etc. Ringing them is a small part as well.
I don't think that Urmas, who really loves "his eagles" would ever harm them! Juta already posted a link to the picture of the new smaller transmitters they are going to use, and I don't think they will be that disturbing! And - additionally - we will be able to follow such birds on the Migration Map in autumn.

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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:03 pm 
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Birdie wrote:
Kukelke wrote:

In order to understand their migration routes it is -unfortunately- necessary to do this. I do know that many British ospreys have one, and that similar projects are also run in Norway among others. Maybe our German friends here know about similar projects in Germany? So now they start to understand a bit more about the migration routes of North and West European ospreys to West Africa, and the dangers they meet.






I have seen this transmitters for storks a few times and watch the routes they are flying each year. It is done from the most popular nature community here in Germany, called NABU.
They have done this with some kind of birds also, white tailed eagles, red kites and so on.


This is true, Birdie, and some of the most valuable information came from a White Stork called "Prinzesschen" (if I remember the name correctly) who flew with the transmitter for many years and when she finally died of old age and exhaustion in South Africa, the bird and transmitter were found and the people in Germany informed.
As far as I know, raptor specialist B.-U. Meyburg is at the moment busy putting transmitters on LSE in North Germany, and a lot of the facts we know about LSE come from "his" birds!

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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:05 pm 
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Kukelke wrote:
jopie wrote:
13.49

Then I am going to say goodbye to you all!!!

Not because I am not having it my may, but because it makes me very, very depressed to see a bird like this :cry:

I really can not watch a bird with an antenna on its back, it is so demeaning.

So, goodbye to you all, I wish you all the best!!!! :wave:

Hi jopie,

I, and I think most, if not all of us, do agree on that it isn't a pretty sight to see a bird with a transmitter on it's back. But I don't think the birds are bothered much by it, otherwise no sane scientist with love for the birds would ever attach one.

In order to understand their migration routes it is -unfortunately- necessary to do this. I do know that many British ospreys have one, and that similar projects are also run in Norway among others. Maybe our German friends here know about similar projects in Germany? So now they start to understand a bit more about the migration routes of North and West European ospreys to West Africa, and the dangers they meet.

I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the migration routes of East European and Baltic ospreys are as well documented. Also, our ospreys most likely will take a route via the Balkans and the Middle East to the Red Sea and East Africa, so you can't just use the data obtained by British ospreys for example.

For, lets just face the grim facts, only 40% of the British juvenile ospreys who migrate to Africa, return to the place of birth. Just to give an example.
It would be good to know what the numbers of East European and Baltic ospreys are in this regard. Where are the dangers? What kind of dangers? What can we humans do to improve the chances of survival and to make them thrive?

These fantastic birds are the top-predators in their food chain. If they thrive, their whole ecosystem thrives.

Being from the Netherlands myself, just like you jopie, we both know that ospreys haven't raised chicks here in a very long time, if ever. But the Netherlands are an important stop over for migrating Scandinavian ospreys, and the last decade or so, some (probably) Scandinavian birds, returning juveniles, have "oversummered" here, and even built nests. A (re-)colonisation of the Netherlands seems to be in progress. Wouldn't it be fantastic to have our "own" Dutch ospreys? There are already erected some nesting platforms on suitable places and other measures have been taken, but a lot about osprey migration and recolonisation, or plain colonisation of new areas, is still unknown.
Also in this regard it could help with transmitters.
http://www.rekel.nl/visarenden/nederlan ... ssen_1.htm
http://www.farmlandbirds.net/en/content ... -nederland (article in Dutch saying possible breeding attempts in the Netherlands)

We have to do what we can to preserve these birds and to make them thrive (just as the rest of nature) for the generations to come after us. After all, we only 'lease' the world, including ospreys, from our children, and if transmitters can help so our children and grandchildren also will be able to enjoy these birds, then so be it.

My 50 cents.


I think (I see) that Jopi is allready offline, so I like to react on your story.
Do you realy think there are no risks involved in placing such an transmitter? (read my earlyer comment on that above)
Do you realy think that just ONE gouvernement will replace windmills or factorys or whátever because of migrating birds?

It all is in OUR benefit, nót in the benefit of the birds, we wánt to do it because we cán do it and because we want to satisfy our curiosity, we like to play God and the animals just have to addept on all the terrible things we allready did to them, not the other way around.
So, I say NO! not:"so be it" (but I don't think they will listen)


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:07 pm 
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catweazle wrote:
Jasmijntje wrote:
maroni wrote:
is it dangerous in any way (thunder/lightning?) a.s.o.

That's a very interesting question. Hope, someone can answer it.


I did a quick search and found this here: ( I hope quoting the full text here is not against any laws, if yes, I'll remove it again)
The information provided about the transmitter might not be like the one KK uses!

http://raptorresource.org/forum/index.php?topic=781.0;wap2

Transmitter FAQS

(1/1)

mrsfalcon:
Why are you trapping and transmittering the eagles?
RRP decided to band the eaglets to help us determine where they go and whether or not they survive. Initially, we were only going to band one eagle. However, following today's success, we have decided to try to band more of them. We don't know whether we will end up banding and transmitting all of the eagles or not. We will see what happens in the weeks to come. Banding has yielded a great deal of valuable scientific information on bird migration, survivability, and reproductive success. Bands and transmitters help us protect important bird areas (witness Audubon's IBA program), identify threats, and determine the health of a species as a whole.

We did not make this decision lightly. We determined early on that we would not band the young in the nest, since we didn’t feel we could get to the nest without jeopardizing the eaglets. Once we decided to band and transmitter young after fledging, we involved an eagle biologist with years of experience in banding and trapping young and adult eagles. Bob researched banding very carefully, and was not able to find any evidence that banding affected the survivability or reproductive success of eagles – a finding supported by our own years of banding young falcons.

We understand that people are concerned about the eagles and our motivation for banding. However, at our core, we have always been about science, conservation, and education. Banding the eaglet will not harm it and will aid the service of all three areas.

What did you use to trap the eaglet?
We have been working with two traps. One is a large remote controlled bow nest and the other is called a Pandam trap. We caught the eaglet with the Pandam trap. The Pandam is a 36" diameter hoop made out of 5/8" steel. Large monofilament nooses were fixed around the circumference of the steel hoop. Two trout were placed in the center of the trap. When D1 finished eating a trout that Bob set out near the traps, she walked over to the Pandam and was immediately caught in a noose.

Is the transmitter hurting the eaglet?
It is not. We have been monitoring the eaglet in person and via the satellite data. D1's behavior has not changed, and her parents and siblings are not treating her any differently. She is flying well and is still able to procure food. Here is a picture of D1 in the nest with her sibling. These two spent a great deal of time together prior to the transmitter, and that has not changed.


Will the transmitter act as a lightning rod?
No. Here is why:

1. The transmitter does not provide a path to ground for lightning.
2. The transmitter does not change the eagle's electrical potential.


Lightning or grounding rods are taller than the things they are sitting on and provide a very firm connection to ground. To flow, electricity has to have somwhere to come from, and somewhere to go to - hence ground. Unlike trees and buildings, the transmitter does not provide a path to ground along which electricity can flow.


What does the transmitter look like?
Check out this video to see it on D1: http://youtu.be/fJ7CrREEf0A

How much does the transmitter weigh?
The transmitter weighs 2 ounces. The eagles total weight is 14 pounds, so the transmitter is .8% of her total body weight.

Where can I view D1's Travels?
Check out http://www.raptorresource.org/maps/latest.php for the latest report on D1.

Will the transmitter fall off?
The transmitter is not designed to fall off. Eagles do sometimes manage to remove their transmitters, so we will not say that it will never fall off. However, it is not designed to.

How is the transmitter powered?
The transmitter is powered via a small battery and a solar cell. The solar cell charges the battery, which keeps the data system transmitting for longer than it would via battery alone.

Who made the transmitter?
The transmitter is an Argos transmitter. Argos specializes in environmental and wildlife tracking and monitoring. To learn more, visit their website at http://www.argos-system.org

How does the transmitter work?
The transmitter is programmed to send signals at periodic intervals to NOAA and Met-Op satellites flying in polar orbits. The satellites pick up the signals and store them on-board or relay them in real-time back to earth. On average, the platform or transmitter is visible to the satellite for ten minutes. Depending on how the transmitter is programmed and the quality of the connection, the satellite might receive anywhere from 1 to more than 4 messages from the transmitter. It takes approximately 100 minutes for the satellite to revolved around the earth.Receiving stations relay data from satellites to processing centers.A processing center collects and processes the data before sending it to us.
What is a 'confidence number' - ie, why are some fixes better than others?
A fix (location) is classified as one of seven categories. The categories are classified according to estimated error and the number of messages received during a satellite pass.
LC Estimated Error No. of messages received
3 <250m 4 or more
2 250m – 500m 4 or more
1 500m – 1500m 4 or more
0 >1500m 4 or more
A No accuracy estimation 3
B No accuracy estimation 1 or 2
Z Invalid location

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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:08 pm 
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Jasmijntje and Jopie,
I personally agree, that such intervention is ambivalent.
Yet persons and governments are not persuaded by moral words. The example of the Prinzesschen is excellent for showing, how the information detected by one single animal can help change the sensibility of many to first get the knowledge and second to take action in order to protect. Here in Germany many people (from preschooler to elderly) were informed by media, events and schools.
Would it be pure curiosity an would there be no need to protect the animals, such antennas shouldn't be used.
But that's not how it is.
And I also think, the colleagues of Urmas an he himself are totally aware of what the do and what they need to do. They love those animals and spend so much time to collect information. If nothing else they gave us this fantastic opportunity to watch this offspring grow up.
I think it's not fair to judge.
Bye
Kapa


Urmas,
sorry, I saw your post too late.

All,
can the "real" maiden flight take place any time of the day or is it more likely to happen in the early morning? I am talking about really leaving the tree.


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:10 pm 
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will(y) wrote:
meierlein wrote:
no - it will look like this
Image


ah, an remote-controlled osprey... :-|
Video of ringing an osprey chick and fitting the satellite transmitter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6THdM7FsS4

Urmas wrote:
[...]
We with Latvian colleague Janis are going to look after the nest site and if we are lucky, one of parents could get transmitter [...]

i can't imagine how this shall be done...



NO WAY! URMAS, PLEASE CONFIRM YOU WON"T DO ANY TRANSMITTERS ON THESE BIRDS! Please... just don't, my god...

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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:12 pm 
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gitana wrote:

NO WAY! URMAS, PLEASE CONFIRM YOU WON"T DO ANY TRANSMITTERS ON THESE BIRDS! Please... just don't, my god...


Just to remind everybody - those transmitters won't attract lightning to the birds - see the FAQs on transmitters I have posted on the previous page!

Quote:
Is the transmitter hurting the eaglet?
It is not. We have been monitoring the eaglet in person and via the satellite data. D1's behavior has not changed, and her parents and siblings are not treating her any differently. She is flying well and is still able to procure food. Here is a picture of D1 in the nest with her sibling. These two spent a great deal of time together prior to the transmitter, and that has not changed.


Will the transmitter act as a lightning rod?
No. Here is why:

1. The transmitter does not provide a path to ground for lightning.
2. The transmitter does not change the eagle's electrical potential.


Lightning or grounding rods are taller than the things they are sitting on and provide a very firm connection to ground. To flow, electricity has to have somwhere to come from, and somewhere to go to - hence ground. Unlike trees and buildings, the transmitter does not provide a path to ground along which electricity can flow.


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 Post subject: Re: Osprey-related Discussion.
PostPosted: August 4th, 2012, 8:13 pm 
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Felis silvestris wrote:
Birdie wrote:
Kukelke wrote:

In order to understand their migration routes it is -unfortunately- necessary to do this. I do know that many British ospreys have one, and that similar projects are also run in Norway among others. Maybe our German friends here know about similar projects in Germany? So now they start to understand a bit more about the migration routes of North and West European ospreys to West Africa, and the dangers they meet.






I have seen this transmitters for storks a few times and watch the routes they are flying each year. It is done from the most popular nature community here in Germany, called NABU.
They have done this with some kind of birds also, white tailed eagles, red kites and so on.


This is true, Birdie, and some of the most valuable information came from a White Stork called "Prinzesschen" (if I remember the name correctly) who flew with the transmitter for many years and when she finally died of old age and exhaustion in South Africa, the bird and transmitter were found and the people in Germany informed.
As far as I know, raptor specialist B.-U. Meyburg is at the moment busy putting transmitters on LSE in North Germany, and a lot of the facts we know about LSE come from "his" birds!



It is everything about us again, right? We want to know! O yes, we want to know! we will put info on web or write a book... And what?
We know where they (osprey) go for winter but we won't stop stupid hunters to shoot them. Such people do harm not only for ospreys but animal as well as all live nature. Look at the people who are so cruel with their pets: dogs, cats, farm animals. We know everything about dogs or cats but we can't prevent them from being beaten, brutally killed. So I don't want to be involved in anything what wild nature makes upset... Instead of putting transmitters lets look around and be brave to say a word when we see somebody putting trash in the fields, forrest or harming animals or pets... It will be the first step into a BIG CHANGE. Such forums are the best not only for us, adults, but for our kids as well. They see wild birds and they fall in love with them as they are so beautiful. To be honest with you i don't want to see our birds with some "equipment". I would accept it if there would be necessary, but now it is not! Not at all... it is just about us that we want to know from which late Madis brings the fishes... It is so sad guys...


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