Following Karls' Families

[sova]

Michi,
they are BS fitted with transmitter also from other countries, e.g. from Poland much young storks already more years and the first results are already published and also few others papers

..... but if I want to know what's happening in my country. How are my people, then I do not need Polish data about Polish people. (just an example)

[aquiline]

kuhankeittäjä, thank you so much for your explanations and you time

[Solo]

..... but if I want to know what's happening in my country. How are my people, then I do not need Polish data about Polish people. (just an example)

- migration is not in my country - birds are from my country
- I wrote "they are BS fitted with transmitter also from other countries" - not that we don't need data about Estonian storks

- 10 years x 2 storklet = still only 20 juvenile individuals - Poland: only in one year had been marked with transmitter cca 18 storklets (public data)

BS with transmitter from Estonia

(source: birdmap)

- public data are also known about storks from Latvia, also a larger number of individuals (28)

[Ari19]

kuhankeittäjä, thank you for, once again, taking the time to explain to us in simple words how the transmitters work.
Without your help, we would never know such details. Thank you!
Your posts and expertise are always very much appreciated.

[Anne7]

Hello, everyone

Shall we try to fund-raise and buy more for next year? Maybe this is not quite the right time to suggest that.

Jo, I believe it is the right time. ... Valuable and further insights can only be gained from many years of observation. ...
…These few events do not provide sufficient information on the reasons for the success or failure of migration. …

they are BS fitted with transmitter also from other countries, e.g. from Poland much young storks already more years and the first results are already published and also few others papers

..... but if I want to know what's happening in my country. How are my people, then I do not need Polish data about Polish people. (just an example)

- migration is not in my country - birds are from my country
- I wrote "they are BS fitted with transmitter also from other countries" - not that we don't need data about Estonian storks
- 10 years x 2 storklet = still only 20 juvenile individuals - Poland: only in one year had been marked with transmitter cca 18 storklets (public data)
BS with transmitter from Estonia
https://i.postimg.cc/jSW8Cmb4/BS-with-transmitter.jpg
(source: birdmap)
- public data are also known about storks from Latvia, also a larger number of individuals (28)

Hello, Solo

I think your answer is rather ambiguous.
First, you write:
“migration is not in my country - birds are from my country”.
This answer sounds as if the migration of BS is not related to their country of origin.
However, other routes are flown (by part of the Polish BS, for example) and the survival rates also seem to differ between countries.
(Edit: Also the migration-distance to cover may be very important, and probably also the initial health condition of the tracked birds...)

Immediately afterwards you say:
“I wrote ‘they are BS fitted with transmitter also from other countries’ - not that we don't need data about Estonian storks”.
Followed by some figures from Poland and Latvia.

All interested people, including Jo, Michi and Sova already know these figures, Solo.
These 'general facts' have nothing to do with the above conversation or with Jo's initial question: "Shall we try to fund-raise ... ?”

I personally think it is particularly important that we also have information on migrating BS from Estonia. For example to learn:
Why do so few young female BS return to Estonia? What happened to them? Did they perish on their migration? Or do they prefer to breed in more southern countries? If so, where?

[sova]

Hello, everyone
...

I can never articulate it as well as you, Anne.
I do not know if it's my second language or this third language (Englich).. Unfortunately, my mother tongue is not translated so well on Englich.

[Jo UK]

Tracker Map
October 22 to October 23, 2019


KARULA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QbTF3 ... sp=sharing

[Anne7]

Tracker Map
October 22 to October 23, 2019
KARULA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QbTF3 ... sp=sharing

Thank you, Jo

Karula is still at Lake Eber. (36 days)

His yellow line is 2,22 km long. (Distance of the last 24 hours)
At 15:40:20 (UTC+3), the battery level is 56% (3886 mV).

[visit]

“migration is not in my country - birds are from my country”.

Perhaps it would be a help not to speak any more about "my country", "my bird", "my Aru", "my Oru", "my babies", "our babies", etc - but just of what it is: Estland, Polen, some black storks, Aru, Oru, etc

*only waiting for some writing "my migration"

[sova]

Jo, thanks for the tracker map
It would be good for the battery if our Karula would fly more.

[Anne7]

Kuhankeittäjä, thank you very much for sharing your extensive findings.

Please don't worry, Sova, your English is perfectly understandable.
I believe that, in general, there arise only very few misunderstandings on the forum because of translation difficulties.
Only a few members speak English as their native language.

Many thanks for the weather report.

TODAY'S SUMMARY OCTOBER 23

KARULA (Hatched 20.05.2018)
Birdmap was set to spring migration and the new distance measurement started on 15.02.2019
(Total distance on 14.02.2019 = 6606 km)
Birdmap was set to autumn migration on 11.08.2019 and the new distance measurement started on 15.07.2019
(Total distance on 14.07.2019 = 3012 km)
Overall flown distance until 14.07.2019 = 9618 km
Karula arrived at Lake Eber on 17. September (= 36 days)
No birdmap update.
(Last birdmap data: 20.10.2019. Distance: 1142 km (+ 16 km in 6 days), same area at Lake Eber, near Derekarabağ, Turkey)
Weather report on 23.10 in Derekarabağ at 10:00
Temp 2 m above the ground: 15°
Temp 500 m above the ground: 17°
Precipitation: 0 mm
Humidity: 60%
Air pressure: 1020 hPa
Clouds: 50% - 100%
Wind 100 m - NE (21 km/h)
Wind 250 m - NE (21 km/h)
Wind 500 m - NE (18 km/h)
Weather report on 23.10 in Derekarabağ at 15:00
Temp 2 m above the ground: 17°
Temp 500 m above the ground: 20°
Wind 100 m - NE (18 km/h)
Wind 250 m - NE (19 km/h)
Wind 500 m - NE (17 km/h)

ORU (Hatched 16.05.2019)
Oru started his first migration on 10.08.2019.
Last birdmap data: 12.10.2019. Distance: 4099 km, near Dedepınarı in Turkey.
Oru perished on 12.10.2019. Age 149 days (or 4 months and 26 days). 63 days after starting his migration.

ARU (Hatched 16.05.2019)
Aru started his first migration on 17.08.2019.
Last birdmap data: 09.10.2019. Distance: 1884 km, a little north of Borki in Belarus.
On 10.10.2019, Aru has been found alive, but in poor condition, and has been taken to veterinarians in Pinsk.
On 11.10.2019, Aru died. Age: 148 days (or 4 months and 25 days). 55 days after starting his migration.

Good night, everyone

[Michi]

Good evening,

Kuhankeittäjä, many thanks for your detailed explanation of what could have happened to Oru and the transmitter! It is interesting what data you can read from the graphs.
Yes, it's such a pity, that the seekers couldn't even find a feather from Oru. Hardly to believe.

Hello, everyone : wave:
....
I personally think it is particularly important that we also have information on migrating BS from Estonia. For example to learn:
Why do so few young female BS return to Estonia? What happened to them? Did they perish on their migration? Or do they prefer to breed in more southern countries? If so, where?

Anne , I completely agree. That is why, in my opinion, we should once again carry out a fundraising campaign for transmitters.

Many thanks to everyone for todays trackermaps, reports and the pictures from Karulas position.
Is the low battery level of Karula's transmitter alarming? 56 %?

[Ari19]

*only waiting for some writing "my migration"

[Liz01]

On the subject of too few female
This also applies to Latvia. And that's been known for a long time. The main reason to equip female with a transmitter is to find out why so few female black storks return.
But, how many female survive, we can not know. We would need to know how many female storks are hatch. And right now we do not know if we lost female Estonian black storks this year. There is no DNA result yet. Karula is male. The only surviving female, equipped with a transmitter is Mare. She did not return to her homeland to breed. She was smart, found a better place.

I'm afraid it will get worse in the future. As Urmas wrote, it was dry for 2 years. That's not good at all. And it still hardly rains in the north. Usually there should be already snow!

[Jo UK]

Michi, Liz and all - you make a good case for the continued use of transmitters on black storks. We need to know so much more about them to be better able to make the right decisions about helping them.

Therefore, there will be another fund-raising effort, beginning in a few days. We will use the Leetchi fund-raising site again. We are familiar with it, and they know us now. Their administration charges are among the lowest in that field and their requirements and rules are correct and easy to follow.

When it is set up there will be a separate topic for us to be able to follow the progress of our efforts.

[Anne7]

Hello, everyone.

On the subject of too few female
This also applies to Latvia. And that's been known for a long time. The main reason to equip female with a transmitter is to find out why so few female black storks return.
But, how many female survive, we can not know. We would need to know how many female storks are hatch. And right now we do not know if we lost female Estonian black storks this year. There is no DNA result yet. Karula is male. The only surviving female, equipped with a transmitter is Mare. She did not return to her homeland to breed. She was smart, found a better place.
I'm afraid it will get worse in the future. As Urmas wrote, it was dry for 2 years. That's not good at all. And it still hardly rains in the north. Usually there should be already snow!

Hello, Liz

There is an interesting study that investigated the nestling gender ratio.
During nest checking, they collected samples of 815 Black Stork nestlings in 2008–2012 from seven European countries and regions: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, western Ukraine, southern Belarus, central Poland, and north-eastern France.

The entire study is worth reading.
It says among other things:
"The Black Stork is declining in several parts of its range, for example in the Baltic countries, where, indeed, an excess of adult males has been suspected (Konovalov et al. 2011; Strazds et al., in preparation). As we did not find any strongly male-biased sex ratios in Black Stork nestlings in those countries, we may conclude that, if this is the case, skewed adult sex ratios occur due to sex-specific differences in dispersal or mortality after fledging. Moreover, it has also been found that, according to ringing data, the mortality of females seems to be higher than in males (M. Strazds, unpublished data). This agrees with several previous studies, which have shown that females, as usually the rarer sex, often have lower survival rates compared to males (Liker and Sze ́kely 2005). Further studies are needed to reveal whether a skewed adult sex ratio is characteristic of the declining Baltic Black Stork population or is typical for the species. Also, it requires further investigations to find out whether the lack of females could lead to the higher profitability, and thus to the higher production of female nestlings (cf. Trivers and Willard 1973) as suggested by the tendency found in our study."

This study is inclosed in the "What We Know About Black Storks" topic: viewtopic.php?p=687203#p687203

Spatio-temporal variation in nestling sex ratio among the Black Stork Ciconia nigra populations across Europe
Annika Konovalov, Katrin Kaldma, Andriy Bokotey, Paul Brossault, Frederic Chapalain, Marina Dmitrenok, Natalie Dzyubenko, Urmas Sellis, Māris Strazds, Luc Strenna, Rimgaudas Treinys, Piotr Zielinski, Ülo Väli
Abstract: Sex ratio is an indicator of population health as unexpected biases may indicate potential threats. We studied nestling sex ratio in Black Stork Ciconia nigra populations in order to check potential biases and differences along east-west and north-south gradient across its distribution range in Europe. We also studied variation between years, and checked potential correlations with weather variables. The overall sex ratio of nestlings in Europe was nearly equal with a non-significant deficiency (47.1 %) of males, the larger sex. Although yearly fluctuations in sex ratio were detected, no significant effect of the year alone was found, only simultaneously with population and brood size. There was a tendency to have a higher proportion of female nestlings in larger broods, but the pattern was probably scattered by the effect of reduction of the largest broods. Compared to Western and Eastern Europe, a significant deficiency of male nestlings was found in Central Europe (Poland), whereas no differences were found along the north-south gradient. We did not find any effect of temperature, but rainfall during the incubation period was negatively correlated with the proportion of male nestlings in Central (Poland) and Western Europe (France) whereas in North-Eastern Europe (Latvia) the same effect of the precipitation in the pre-breeding period was found.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pi ... Europe.pdf

[Liz01]

.....
There is an interesting study that investigated the nestling gender ratio.
During nest checking, they collected samples of 815 Black Stork nestlings in 2008–2012 from seven European countries and regions: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, western Ukraine, southern Belarus, central Poland, and north-eastern France....

Anne, thank you very much for that! It's very interesting
I quickly read and saw that a lot of rain during the incubation has an effect on whether more male than female hatch.
I have to read it more carefully. But as I said, I think it's very interesting. Unfortunately, I'm in a big hurry.

[Anne7]

Anne, thank you very much for that! It's very interesting
I quickly read and saw that a lot of rain during the incubation has an effect on whether more male than female hatch.
I have to read it more carefully. But as I said, I think it's very interesting. Unfortunately, I'm in a big hurry.

Liz, there is also this study, contributed to the "What We Know" topic by you.
viewtopic.php?p=687203#p687203
Unfortunately, the full text of this study (a 12-years study of 284 nestlings in central Poland) isn't available for free (as far as I know).

Contributed by Liz01
Brood sex ratio and nestling physiological condition as indicators of the influence of weather conditions on breeding black storks Ciconia nigra
Maciej Kamińskia, Jerzy Bańburab, Bartosz Janica, Katrin Kaldmac, Annika Konovalovc, Lidia Marszała, Piotr Miniasd, Ülo Välic, Piotr Zielińskia
Highlights:
• The paper examines the influence of the weather on Black Stork nestlings sex ratio.
• (Higher) temperatures in the pre-breeding period negatively correlate with nestling male ratio.
• (More) rainfall in the hatching period negatively correlates with nestling male ratio.
• Delayed broods have lower nestling male ratio.
• Male nestlings have poorer body condition.
Abstract: In species with sexual dimorphism, raising female or male offspring may be associated with different costs and benefits, resulting in a skewed nestling sex ratio. We examined the influence of weather conditions, hatching date and brood size on nestling sex ratio in the black stork Ciconia nigra. We used molecular methods to determine the sex of 284 nestlings. Samples were collected during a 12-years study in central Poland. The overall nestling sex ratio was skewed towards females (61%), which are smaller, and presumably easier to raise than males. Delayed hatching date significantly increased the proportion of female nestlings. Warmer temperatures in the pre-breeding season were correlated with lower proportions of males. This is probably mediated by the influence of weather on water levels in black stork foraging sites. The second most important weather trait was total rainfall in May, the month in which the majority of nestlings hatch. Total May rainfall was negatively correlated with the percentage of male offspring. We used blood haemoglobin concentration as an indicator of body condition in a subsample of 122 nestlings. The males from the study population had lower blood haemoglobin concentrations, indicating their poorer body condition and supporting the hypothesis that they are the more vulnerable sex. We also observed that blood haemoglobin concentration of nestlings is lower in late broods. Deteriorating body condition of late offspring can explain the observed increase in female nestling proportions in delayed broods.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0X19303279


We have the full text of this Portuguese study:

Molecular sexing of the Black Stork Ciconia nigra: sex ratios in the Portuguese population
Margarida FERNANDES, Carla BORGES, Fernanda SIMÕES, José Manuel CABALLERO, Carlos PACHECO & Cláudia FRANCO;
Abstract: We sexed 125 chicks of black stork ringed between 2003 and 2005 in Portugal. We use a combination of molecular methods which effectively determine sex in this species. Analysis was done mainly using feather samples, applying a non-invasive approach to a threatened population. Sex ratios and female proportion within broods were calculated. An excess of females was observed during the years studied, and globally, the deviation from parity was statistically significant. This result needs to be confirmed and related to changes in habitat quality. The sex ratio of black stork populations should be monitored in the long term as they may be an important source of information for monitoring ecological stress. This is the first assessment of sex in a wild population in Portugal.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ma ... lation.pdf

[Anne7]

Michi, Liz and all - you make a good case for the continued use of transmitters on black storks. We need to know so much more about them to be better able to make the right decisions about helping them.

Therefore, there will be another fund-raising effort, beginning in a few days. We will use the Leetchi fund-raising site again. We are familiar with it, and they know us now. Their administration charges are among the lowest in that field and their requirements and rules are correct and easy to follow.

When it is set up there will be a separate topic for us to be able to follow the progress of our efforts.

Many thanks, Jo

[Jo UK]

Tracker Map
October 23 to October 24, 2019

KARULA

Sorry - no map today
I row couldn't be shown on the map

I will try again later.

Five minutes later -

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1a-cPU ... sp=sharing