Following Karls' Families

Migration Maps, Tõnn, Greater Spotted Eagle and Black Storks
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kuhankeittäjä
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Re: Following Karl's Family

Post by kuhankeittäjä » September 20th, 2018, 11:43 am

Anne7 wrote:
September 19th, 2018, 11:15 pm
Hello, Sova :hi:
I would say that for long distance flights 100 m or even 250 m above the ground would be a good average.
Hi Anne7 :hi:

Thanks for your visualization of the BS family member sites and paths. It is really nice to see in which kind of landscape they live now and guess how they feed. Just we don't know whether they are alone or have company.

Does the quoted info above mean that the BS let thermals rise them also during long travel flights? To which altitude they rise and what is their gliding ratio? E.g. Average altitude 250m, lower limit 100m, -> upper limit 400m. If gliding ratio is 1:10 they could continuously glide forward 3km plus wind.

Let say that the speeds are 10m/s for gliding and 20m/s for blowing. So they would come down from thermal heights to lower limit in five minutes and simultaneously get forward nine kilometres.

Or could they take more altitude by thermals, e.g. to 1300m and glide down to 100m from there, having an average travel altitude of 700m and a gliding altitude difference of 1200m. In that case they would glide for 20minutes continuously and get forward 12km without wind or 36km assisted by a tail wind of 20m/s.

If they spend 10 minutes to get up again by a thermal of 3m/s their average flight speed would be 24km/h (no wind) or 72+24=96km/h (tail wind 20m/s). The latter is maybe too high estimate, provided that daily legs can be up to 500km/day at a maximum. Maybe there are not so well developed thermals during high wind. I am sure that this has been well studied and calculated in science and aviation techniques already long ago. :nod:

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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 11:45 am

:hi:
Another question;
We have Karl data from 19.09. but wind and temp are of today ?!
So ... how do we do it?
19.9. I can not click on the map anymore.

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Post by Solo » September 20th, 2018, 12:04 pm

Anne7 wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 11:15 am
... I personally believe that tailwind will significantly help the BS to fly faster and thus further, and that (strong) headwind could make long flights (in the right direction) nearly impossible ...
that is also very complex problem, swiftness of migration is not question only the wind - in spring is faster (hormones, ...), but the situation is often not good with weather (temperatures, air flow, ....), now in autumn is slower (more stopovers, ...)

If it is stiff head wind (and birds would have to spend much more energy), they stop and wait for better weather conditions. This also applies in the case of rainy weather and other negative factors. ....

all that is very, very interesting, but my day has only 24 hours :mrgreen:

maybe is better first findig the answer, what is really the point - which data
here is the answer? Influence of weather conditions on the flight of migrating black storks http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... /1695/2755
EDIT: the full pdf http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 5.full.pdf


PS. You wrote: also higher - SK WS this year: 4160 m. n.m ! 4160 m above the ground or above the sealevel? (What is n.m?)
sorry, I only copied - sea level (for example Konya has elevation 1016 m - still plus at least 3050m)

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 12:17 pm

OK, to the point now. The migration data. :laugh:

September 20

Today, Päike and Karula are exactly 4 months old! :D

Today we have no new data on Karl, so far. (Last data: 18.09.2018)

The overview:

Image


Maru
Distance: 2660 km (+ 0 km in 1 day)
Last data: 19.09.2018

He/she made small movements (less than 1 km) at his favourite pond.
Image
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— Irene Pepperberg

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 12:19 pm

Päike
Distance: 1360 km (+ 1 km in 1 day)
Last data: 19.09.2018

Päike is still at the same location, near the Okhaba River.

Image
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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 12:24 pm

Karula
Distance: 1896 km (+ 45 km in 1 day)
Last data: 19.09.2018

Karula made an excursion and returned to the same little pond near Khytir Dashkivskyi.

Image

Image

Image
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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 1:16 pm

Maru (19.09) Ukraine
Image
temp; 22 °
Precipitation; 0 mm
Humidity; 60%
Wind; 100 m (7 km / h)
Image
Wind; 250 m (6 km / h)
Image

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 1:20 pm

sova wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 11:45 am
:hi:
Another question;
We have Karl data from 19.09. but wind and temp are of today ?!
So ... how do we do it?
19.9. I can not click on the map anymore.
Yes, Sova, it is, of course, important that the weather data are from the same day as the flight data.
Swenja said in a previous post that VentuSky also gives the data from the past.
I have to check out how to do that. :puzzled:

Maybe it would be a good idea to note (and save) each day the real and current weather information, and post that information as soon as we have the corresponding flight data?
The flight info that we received today is from yesterday, tomorrow we will probably have the flight data from today.
Solo wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 12:04 pm
... all that is very, very interesting, but my day has only 24 hours :mrgreen:
...
Solo, I agree, we can impossibly do everything on our own. That is too much work!
That's why it is important that many members participate!
But look, we have sova aboard. That's great and makes me happy! :thumbs:

I also agree that there are more things (food availability, hormones...) that have an impact on migration flights than the weather.
But if we could focus on the weather conditions right now, that would already be wonderful!
kuhankeittäjä wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 11:43 am
Kuhankeittäjä, thanks a lot for your post and calculations. :2thumbsup:
You surely have a clever brain.
For me, these calculations are becoming too complex.

How high do they climb up? It depends on the strength of the thermals.
And the strength of a thermal is related to the ground temperature, so to the sunshine.

I believe that BS could slide further than you wrote because they are still being carried by rising warm air during sliding (down). If there is enough upward "lift", BS can probably "soar" very long distances, if the wind is blowing in the right direction.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 1:33 pm

Päike (19.09.) Ukraine (Weather data from 11:00)
Image
temp; 21 °
Precipitation; 0 mm
Humidity; 60%
Wind; 100 m (8 km / h)
Image
Wind; 250 m (15 km / h)
Image

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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 1:38 pm

Anne7 wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 1:20 pm
Yes, Sova, it is, of course, important that the weather data are from the same day as the flight data.
Swenja said in a previous post that VentySky also gives the data from the past.
I have to check out how to do that. :puzzled:

Yes, it works. I know now how :thumbs:
I'll do it all again a little later

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 1:52 pm

sova wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 1:38 pm
Yes, it works. I know now how :thumbs:
I'll do it all again a little later
Sova, you are great! :thumbs:
Thanks a lot! :bow:

Your weather documentation is perfect!
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 3:12 pm

Karula (20.09.) Ukraine (Weather data from 11:00)
Image
temp; 24 °
Precipitation; 0 mm
Humidity; 50%
Wind; 100 m (11 km / h)
Image
Wind; 250 m (11 km / h)
Image

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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 3:29 pm

Karl (19.09.) Romania (weather data from 11:00)
Image
temp; 21 °
Precipitation; 0 mm
Humidity; 60%
Wind; 100 m (10 km / h)
Image
Wind; 250 m (10 km / h)
Image

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm

sova wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 3:12 pm
Karula (20.09.) Ukraine (Weather data from 11:00)
Sova, thanks again! :thumbs:
It is interesting!
On 19.09, the wind came from the wrong direction (from the south) and none of our youngsters flew long distances southwards that day.

Of course, it is far too early to make any conclusions now. :laugh:
We will see what happens in the future!

I believe that it should be Karula (19.09.) ?
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 3:41 pm

Edi (20.09.) Saudi Arabia (weather data from 11:00)
Image
temp; 35 °
Precipitation; 0 mm
Humidity; 10%
Wind; 100 m (13 km / h)
Image
Wind; 250 m (13 km / h)
Image

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Post by Solo » September 20th, 2018, 4:18 pm

sova wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 3:41 pm
Edi (20.09.) Saudi Arabia (weather data from 11:00)
:hi: Sova, thank you for your effort :thumbs:
Eedi is not "Karl's Family" - maybe it is not necessarily to do it also for him (for me not)
:wave:

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 4:27 pm

Just for comparison: we have new data on Eedi (20.09)
4764 km (+148 km)
Eedi is already in Saudi Arabia. :laugh:

Image
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sova
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Post by sova » September 20th, 2018, 4:28 pm

Anne7 wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
I believe that it should be Karula (19.09.) ?
Anne ... then I misunderstand the map :blush:
Image

Image

Solo
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Post by Solo » September 20th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Anne7 wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
... On 19.09, the wind came from the wrong direction (from the south) and none of our youngsters flew long distances southwards that day. Of course, it is far too early to make any conclusions now. :laugh:
- this time they fly usually not long distances :laugh: (they migrate now no)
- If it is stiff headwind (and birds would have to spend much more energy), they stop and wait for better weather conditions. This also applies in the case of rainy weather and other negative factors. .... - Anne, that is scientific fact, no too early conclusion :mrgreen:

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » September 20th, 2018, 4:36 pm

sova wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 4:28 pm
Anne ... then I misunderstand the map :blush:
No no, you could not know it: that "slider bar" is often giving wrong information. :slap:

Just click on the bird, and you will see the latest, trustable data.
This way:

Image
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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