Following Karls' Families

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Jo UK
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Re: Following Karls' Families

Post by Jo UK » October 18th, 2019, 6:36 pm

Solo wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 5:45 pm
I have a precise description from Urmas, but I do not know whether I can publish it - but according to him, Oru died - after 14:55 UTC probably in half of hour.

edit: and vice versa, I gave him detailed information from the seekers
We (Anne, Juta and I) have the same information but as it is in the forum of an e-mail it is not right to post it.
Anne's interpretation will be exact.

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Post by pica » October 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm

thank you all to try to explain. then i make a point at the end of the phrase.

Image

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pirkkokn
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Post by pirkkokn » October 18th, 2019, 6:51 pm

pica wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm
thank you all to try to explain. then i make a point at the end of the phrase.

Image
Miss you both :cry:
Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished. (Lao Tsu)

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » October 18th, 2019, 7:02 pm

pica wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:46 pm
thank you all to try to explain. then i make a point at the end of the phrase.
Pica, this beautiful picture makes me cry.
Oru died one day after Aru died.
Jo UK wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 6:36 pm
...
Anne's interpretation will be exact.
I hope it is, Jo.

I copy here what I wrote on the previous page, because people do not read backwards.

The XYZ graph is an (almost 100% certain) evidence that Oru died.
The only other explanation of "no movements on XYZ" (flat lines) would be that Oru lost his transmitter. That is extremely unlikely. The harness is particularly strong and is intended to last a very long time.
In addition, a transmitter would not first lie motionless somewhere for 2 days, then "move" for another two days, and then again remain motionless...
Two days after Oru died, his body was probably found by predators and/or rats(?). This could explain the weird movements of the transmitter.
When nothing was left to eat, any remains and the transmitter were left alone.

EDIT: All times are in UTC. To know the real local time in Turkey (UTC +3) you have to add 3 hours.

Image
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by pica » October 18th, 2019, 7:23 pm

Anne7 wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 7:02 pm
Pica, this beautiful picture makes me cry.
my tears are endless. do you remember the post "we are sailing"?

look at their wings upside - they are sailing together - since then.
twins that we loved, twins that we lost.

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » October 18th, 2019, 7:36 pm

pica wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 7:23 pm
my tears are endless. do you remember the post "we are sailing"?

look at their wings upside - they are sailing together - since then.
twins that we loved, twins that we lost.
Yes, pica.
I remember.

At that time, all was still fine, and I deliberately left out the next strophe.

I am sailing
I am sailing
Home again
'Cross the sea
I am sailing,
Stormy waters
To be near you,
To be free

I am flying,
I am flying
Like a bird
'Cross the sky
I am flying,
Passing high clouds
To be with you,
To be free

Can you hear me, can you hear me
Through the dark night, far away
I am dying, forever crying
To be with you, who can say
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by pica » October 18th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Anne7 wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 7:36 pm
Can you hear me, can you hear me
Through the dark night, far away
I am dying, forever crying
To be with you, who can say
sorry, we did not hear them early enough.

so let them go, wherever they want to and wish them all the best.

thank you anne for reminding us the text.

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Post by kuhankeittäjä » October 18th, 2019, 8:55 pm

Anne7 wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 7:02 pm
Image

:hi: Anne7,

So sad, again.

Please, kindest provide us a diagram where either data points or data gaps are visible, if possible. It helps interpreting informaton.

Anyhow, Oru fell down to its right wing side, stopping to transmit varying acceleration information and, hence, indicating changing body position in the Earth's gravity field, for quite some time. Evidently it was dead. After some rotations it stopped again, this time the left wing side down. Was it buried in the soil of the field?

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Post by Anne7 » October 18th, 2019, 9:31 pm

kuhankeittäjä wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 8:55 pm
:hi: Anne7,

So sad, again.

Please, kindest provide us a diagram where either data points or data gaps are visible, if possible. It helps interpreting informaton.

Anyhow, Oru fell down to its right wing side, stopping to transmit varying acceleration information and, hence, indicating changing body position in the Earth's gravity field, for quite some time. Evidently it was dead. After some rotations it stopped again, this time the left wing side down. Was it buried in the soil of the field?
kuhankeittäjä :hi:
Many thanks.
We don't know where exactly the transmitter is at the moment. We didn't receive any location co-ordinates since 12.10 in the late afternoon.

Someone told me that it is theoretically possible to make an estimate of the last position on the basis of the accelerometer data.*
But many calculations would be required. Do you agree with that? This is beyond my ability.

I can mail you the information that OrniTrack gives us.
The KML, KMZ and CVS files, and the latest tracker map. Would that be helpful?

Please send me your email address via PM, kuhankeittäjä. I can not directly send you an email via the forum.

* Edit: apparently only if there are also velocity data. But we did not receive any recent velocity data. Thank you for this information, kuhankeittäjä. That sounds very logical.

"Was it buried in the soil of the field?"
Maybe. I don’t know. But it is hard to imagine that the plough activities on Oru's particular spot took more than two days. :puzzled:
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by visit » October 18th, 2019, 10:02 pm

Hm, i'm not sure whether it makes sense to post my thoughts - but according to the attempt still to find Oru and/or the transmitter, i'll post my thoughts...
if the tractor Oru had run over, he would not do 1 1/2 day. If Oru had attacked an animal, that would not take nearly 1 1/2 days, would it?
i think: right, too long duration.
my thought was a process in the agriculture (like a harvest and processing or more a position of the translater like hanging in a tree (sometimes you have wind, sometimes not).

as far as i understand it, the black rectangles shows the period of time, where the transmitter shows no movement, and the purple line shows the time of transmitters' movements.

Image
Two days after Oru died, his body was probably found by a predator and/or rats. This can explain the weird movements of the transmitter.
When nothing was left to eat, any remains and the transmitter were left alone.
when i think of the possible predators and their behaviour i don't think so cause of the duration of moving and duration of rest. moving position would mean the predator(s) are all the time eating and moving the transmitter.
i have no idea, which animals would behave like this kind of eating, regarding the time and duration - of course they could be different animals.
but non-stop eating and an often steady/constant motion
- 9 pm until 3 am
- 10 am until 2 pm
- 6 pm until 10 am
- 9 pm until 3 pm
(only roughly time as i understand the graph)

i could imagine quite well that severel animals are eating but for me is the non-stop "eating" duration and constant kind of motion confusing.
therefore i thought of a process in agriculture or a position in a tree.
(perhaps the weather and wind could be compared with the time of movements)

yes - guess, we'll never know it, i think.
but anyway would be good to find...

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Post by Jo UK » October 18th, 2019, 10:16 pm

kuhankeittäjä thank you for your help.

Weather - now we need sova. She has been making weather reports for a long time.

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Post by visit » October 18th, 2019, 10:24 pm

well, but even wind doesn't match to this constant kind of motion, too...
i've no experience with the transmitters - e. g. don't know how many datasets build the line, is the line the dirct connection from datapoint to datapoint or is it like a trendline, etc.
it is this very constant motion for hours, why i thought of something like a technical process.
don't know which technical processes could be possible in this area.

edit: sorry, had described it wrong and have corrected it:
as far as i understand it, the black rectangles shows the period of time, where the transmitter shows no movement, and the purple line shows the time of transmitters' movements.

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Post by Anne7 » October 18th, 2019, 11:00 pm

visit wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 10:24 pm
well, but even wind doesn't match to this constant kind of motion, too...
i've no experience with the transmitters - e. g. don't know how many datasets build the line, is the line the dirct connection from datapoint to datapoint or is it like a trendline, etc.
it is this very constant motion for hours, why i thought of something like a technical process.
don't know which technical processes could be possible in this area.
Visit :wave:
In fact, the transmitter has frequently changed position (its rotation angle) between 14.10 and 17.10. But not constantly.
(The graph connects the lines between all the new inclinations (rotation angles) of the transmitter, which may make it look as if it has constantly been moved. But, in reality, it has not, I think.)

Kuhankeittäjä, is this correct? :help:
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by visit » October 18th, 2019, 11:07 pm

in this case i would like to ask why the graph has connected before the presumed deathtime the datapoints much more detailed and later so different ?
*knowing, you probably don't have an answer
but perhaps the manufacturer ?

perhaps, just in case...:
- do you have a graph of the time, when everything was ok ? *would be interessted in
because of the comparison of the normal to the little time at the beginning of this graph, until 12.10. 15:00
- and do you have a graph with the direct lines, no trendlines ?
- are the green lines from me (under the graph) showing a normal graph above ?
*sry for asking :blush:

Anne :hi: wish you and the others later a good night !

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Post by Anne7 » October 18th, 2019, 11:27 pm

visit wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 11:07 pm
in this case i would like to ask why the graph has connected before the presumed deathtime the datapoints much more detailed and later so different ?
*knowing, you probably don't have an answer
but perhaps the manufacturer ?

Anne :hi: wish you and the others later a good night !
Possibly because the battery level is very low at the moment (the battery does not recharge). The requested frequency of collecting the available data (from the internal sensors) probably changed.
Edit: I will check that tomorrow.

Good night, visit. :wave:

Edit 2: Indeed, the frequency of the collected data has decreased considerably.
This, of course, makes it even harder to correctly interpret the graphs.
visit wrote:
October 18th, 2019, 11:07 pm
perhaps, just in case...:
- do you have a graph of the time, when everything was ok ? *would be interessted in
because of the comparison of the normal to the little time at the beginning of this graph, until 12.10. 15:00
- and do you have a graph with the direct lines, no trendlines ?
- are the green lines from me (under the graph) show a normal graph above ?
*sry for asking :blush:
Edit: I will post a graph of the last 10 days (instead of 7), tomorrow. :nod:
Yes, above your green lines, the graph shows normal movements.

Edit 2: here you are
Image
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Post by Michi » October 19th, 2019, 12:10 am

:wave:
I am very grateful, Anne, kuhankeittäjä and visit, that you are trying to clarify what happened to Oru.

I don't understand much about the graphics, but I looked again at Aru's graph and compared it with Oru's. For better comparison I post them both together.
About Aru's graph it was suspected - because of the flat line - that he was most likely dead. The last dates were from October 7th. But he wasn't dead; he lived another 4 days, until October 11th.
Can't conclusions be drawn from this realization that Oru's death is by no means certain?

ARU's graph

Image


ORU's graph

Image

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Post by Anne7 » October 19th, 2019, 12:19 am

Michi wrote:
October 19th, 2019, 12:10 am
:wave:
I am very grateful, Anne, kuhankeittäjä and visit, that you are trying to clarify what happened to Oru.

I don't understand much about the graphics, but I looked again at Aru's graph and compared it with Oru's. For better comparison I post them both together.
About Aru's graph it was suspected - because of the flat line - that he was most likely dead. The last dates were from October 7th. But he wasn't dead; he lived another 4 days, until October 11th.
Can't conclusions be drawn from this realization that Oru's death is by no means certain?
Hello, Michi :wave:

The temperature of Oru's transmitter dropped almost immediately. That means that his body no longer heated the transmitter.
Aru's transmitter remained warm, in a strange, nearly constant way.

Aru's lines were not as flat as Oru's lines, either.
Aru's information was very confusing.
In my opinion, Oru's information is more clear.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by visit » October 19th, 2019, 12:29 am

hello Michi :wave:

thank you for the graph !

hm, indeed, regarding that all the data are not regulary any more and the more i look and think about the graphs (and when the green line is normal), the less i'm convinced. but i don't want to upset the apple cart ;)

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Post by Michi » October 19th, 2019, 12:42 am

Anne7 wrote:
October 19th, 2019, 12:19 am
Hello, Michi : wave:

The temperature of Oru's transmitter dropped almost immediately. That means that his body no longer heated the transmitter.
Aru's transmitter remained warm, in a strange, nearly constant way.
Anne, now that you say it ... I already had the thought of Oru's low temperature. Then I forgot it again. :slap: Sorry! :rolleyes:
Anne7 wrote:
October 19th, 2019, 12:19 am
Aru's lines were not as flat as Oru's lines, either.
Aru's information was very confusing.
In my opinion, Oru's information is more clear.
I saw differences, too. But because of the strange movings later I thought there could be a possibility.
Thanks for the clarification.

Visit :wave:
Good night to you, too.


Edit:
Anne, I wish you a restful night!

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » October 19th, 2019, 12:51 am

Michi wrote:
October 19th, 2019, 12:42 am
Anne, now that you say it ... I already had the thought of Oru's low temperature. Then I forgot it again. :slap: Sorry! :rolleyes:
No problem, Michi.

Sova, many thanks for the weather report.

TODAY'S SUMMARY OCTOBER 18

KARULA (Hatched 20.05.2018)
Birdmap was set to spring migration and the new distance measurement started on 15.02.2019
(Total distance on 14.02.2019 = 6606 km)

Birdmap was set to autumn migration on 11.08.2019 and the new distance measurement started on 15.07.2019
(Total distance on 14.07.2019 = 3012 km)
Overall flown distance until 14.07.2019 = 9618 km

Karula arrived at Lake Eber on 17. September (= 31 days)
No birdmap update
(Last birdmap data: 14.10.2019. Distance: 1126 km (+ 8 km in 3 days), at Lake Eber near Derekarabağ in Turkey.)
Weather report on 18.10 in Derekarabağ at 10:00
Temp 2 m above the ground: 18°
Temp 500 m above the ground: 21°
Precipitation: 0 mm
Humidity: 50%
Air pressure: 1020 hPa
Clouds: 10% - 50%
Wind 100 m - W / SW (06 km / h)
Wind 250 m - W / SW (06 km / h)
Wind 500 m - W (05 km / h)
Weather report on 18.10 in Derekarabağ at 15:00
Temp 2 m above the ground: 21°
Temp 500 m above the ground: 23°
Wind: 100 m - W/NW (14 km/h)
Wind: 250 m - W/NW (16 km/h)
Wind: 500 m - W/NW (11 km/h)

ORU (Hatched 16.05.2019)
Oru started his first migration on 10.08.2019.
Last birdmap data: 12.10.2019. Distance: 4099 km, near Dedepınarı in Turkey.
Oru perished on 12.10.2019


ARU (Hatched 16.05.2019)
Aru started his first migration on 17.08.2019.
Last birdmap data: 09.10.2019. Distance: 1884 km, a little north of Borki in Belarus.
On 10.10.2019, Aru has been found alive, but in poor condition, and has been taken to veterinarians in Pinsk.
On 11.10.2019, Aru died. Age: 148 days (or 4 months and 25 days). 55 days after starting his migration.



Good night, everyone.
I need a bed now.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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