Petition About Nimetu, from Dr. Madis's topic.

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Re: Petition About Nimetu, from Dr. Madis's topic.

Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 12:37 am

Here is what is, now, hurting me. I have worked very hard on the petition and tried to get everything exactly right. I already belonged to many, many eagle groups, plus general groups for raptors, plus owl groups, all on Facebook. I guess not everyone supports signing petitions, even though they say they are raptor lovers or eagle lovers. I am very disheartened that some of the administrators or moderators of some groups apparenlty have pulled down the petition or just plain removed it from the group. I know when I posted in those groups that this may happen but I just can't understand how someone can sit there and claim they so very much love eagles and post picture after picture of all kinds of beautiful birds, then completely ignore the petition or anything about this killing and this petition. :cry: It really does make me want to cry.

But, I will keep at it and keep working for it. I still have a goal of 500 signatures in my mind. Let's hope we can get that or at least very close to that. I don't want to wait too long before we send it because I feel like the old saying "strike while the iron is still hot".
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Jo UK » October 22nd, 2012, 1:02 am

Chimega, I am so sorry that you have had such a discouraging experience. Certainly, everyone here thanks you for your efforts and appreciates your work.
It's true that some people think that petitions are worthless and don't achieve results, but many more do sign petitions and get good results.
Keep on hoping!

If we could know what the media in Estonia is saying about it, or when it drops the subject, maybe that would be a guide about when to send it? It can wait at least another week, can't it?
It certainly has a strongly international support group!

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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 1:28 am

Jo UK wrote:Chimega, I am so sorry that you have had such a discouraging experience. Certainly, everyone here thanks you for your efforts and appreciates your work.
It's true that some people think that petitions are worthless and don't achieve results, but many more do sign petitions and get good results.
Keep on hoping!

If we could know what the media in Estonia is saying about it, or when it drops the subject, maybe that would be a guide about when to send it? It can wait at least another week, can't it?
It certainly has a strongly international support group!
Hi Jo,

Oh yes, I think a week is good but not a month. I am upset because groups like The Decorah Eagles and other big eagle groups' admins or moderators removed the petition. You would think as huge as they are world-wide, they would want to rally for this and I am sure with as many members as they have in those groups, a LOT of people would have signed, had they known. I guess it would have helped if I had gone in there before the disaster and posted the good things that happened before Nimeta was killed and before he was released so that people would have known him, if only a little. They have no clue what happened in his life before he was killed so maybe they aren't as passionate.

At least a lot from the raptor group and the Harmon Eagle group have signed and are open to keeping this petition going. Thank goodness!

I wish we knew what the government of Estonia and the people thought, too. I don't know how to find out if anything is being done or said without someone from Estonia actually looking into it and posting back on here. :innocent:

Edited to add: I just found my post on The Decorah Eagle site. It got buried with all the other member posts so it's rather hidden but someone from there singed the petition, then forwarded it to their friends and urged them to sign it and told why. Yay!!!
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by juta » October 22nd, 2012, 6:36 am

Good morning!
Chimega, many Estonian members from this forum including me have signed the petition.
I believe that authorities who are responsible in investigation are working hard but as it has been said here many times - it is not easy to find out who did it.
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Post by alice44 » October 22nd, 2012, 7:34 am

Juta, perhaps I should not speak for Chimega but I think her concern is that she does not want to wait so long to turn the petition in that this story is seen as history rather than news.


Like Chimega I am feeling bad because I do not know how to promote this petition. Local Audubon groups would probably be a place to find signers, but I do not think many of them have web presences we can find or approach. The group here always offers money for any information that leads to the arrest (or conviction?) of someone who shoots an eagle. I am not sure any one has ever been caught.

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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 9:31 am

I did look up penalties in the USA for shooting a Bald Eagle or Golden Eagle. The penalty is up to $100,000 dollars in fines and up to 1 year in prison. So far, I can't locate that anyone was arrested or convicted. I sure did find some sad stories about eagles being shot, though, and some of them dying from the effects of having been shot. And some who were rehabilitated and made into ambassadors for various rehab organizations.

I believe the government knows who was in the area at the time of the shooting of Nimeta. If the hunters were in a rented cabin or hut on government land, then someone knows who that property was rented to because surely the hunters or one of them had to sign up for the rental. And I think Dr. Madis has already stated that the hunters are acting as though they know nothing and didn't see or hear anything.

Right now the petition is showing 258 people have signed. I know some people have told me they did sign it, including my son. Some names do not appear to be showing up and I am not sure if people used fake names or what is going on with this. My son's name does not show up, yet he said he signed it using his real name. :puzzled:

I watched some videos of White Tailed Sea Eagles who were in rehab or were ambassador raptors. It sure seems to me that Nimeta was a very nice raptor compared to some of the others of this species that I have seen. I don't see Nimeta trying to bite Dr Madis or anyone else, or fighting with them, but co-operating. I'm not sure why or if that was a good sign for him as a raptor, being made ready for release but it's just a darned shame what happened to him. He was one fine bird!
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Jo UK » October 22nd, 2012, 9:38 am

Eden wrote:Are gamekeepers not also employed by the state?
And when they initiate private hunts – who gets the money which the private hunters have to pay? Probably the state?
So maybe – indirectly – the state itself is responsible for the shooting of birds of prey?
No, not the state. These are private land owners who raise grouse and other game birds for the business of providing "shoots" for profit. The private landowner employs the gamekeeper.

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Post by Felis silvestris » October 22nd, 2012, 9:47 am

Some names do not appear to be showing up and I am not sure if people used fake names or what is going on with this. My son's name does not show up, yet he said he signed it using his real name.
You can chose if your name should appear in the list or not, some are not sure of how much is shown in public (like address), that's why they chose to sign without appearing in the list!
Don't be too disheartened - what you and we have managed so far looks great! Setbacks will always be there!
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"You can judge a man's true character by the way he treats his fellow animals" (Paul McCartney)



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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 9:51 am

Here is an interesting article out of Helsinki, Finland, regarding shooting of White-tailed Sea Eagles and also information about other cases of death and graphs showing the various causes.

http://www.helcom.fi/BSAP_assessment/if ... dSeaEagle/

Also, it appears from another article I just read, that at least in the UK, *some* wardens are volunteers. This is an article about raptors being shot in the Yorkshire area.

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2012/10/19 ... llegation/
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But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by alice44 » October 22nd, 2012, 10:06 am

Jo, it had not occurred to me until just this moment that some of our laws about private property and natural resources are a direct result of attempts to avoid British problems people came here to escape -- of course having lots of open land played a huge role too.

I think our wild animals are public property -- they do not belong to the land owner. This has good and bad sides -- sometimes it just means no one really feels responsible that they should prosper.

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Post by juta » October 22nd, 2012, 10:25 am

Chimega wrote: I believe the government knows who was in the area at the time of the shooting of Nimeta. If the hunters were in a rented cabin or hut on government land, then someone knows who that property was rented to because surely the hunters or one of them had to sign up for the rental. And I think Dr. Madis has already stated that the hunters are acting as though they know nothing and didn't see or hear anything.
That area were Urmas Sellis found Nimeta was unhabited. I don´t believe there were any cabins for rent. One small building which we saw from video was built illegal. I think dr.Madis Leivits referred to an interview with Chairmen of areal Hunters' Society who said something like "can´t say for sure it was done by poaches" and was quite unwilling to give answers at all.
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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 11:10 am

This is Dr Madis' post, with the part about the "hunting hut", the "local hunters", the part about who owns the land.
Madis wrote:
Nimeta is no more. I usually checked his movements once a week and so i did on the 2nd october and it was all fine. I did not check on him until night of 7th (was really busy with work and also ran my first full marathon in-between). So i noticed the problem also and sent a mail to Urmas who consulted whit the manufacturer on Monday and on Tuesday afternoon he went to check out the last place what coordinates we had. So what he saw was not pretty... first lots of dead animal corpses on the field in front of an hunting hut (mostly domestic animal corpses) and he also found half eaten remains of the eagle. So Urmas brought the eagle to me for some diagnostics and i found out, using x-ray, that he had lead fragments in between the remaining tissues what means he had been shot. on necropsy i had some good news... he was pretty fat and inn a good condition, what means he was doing great. besides he had been traveling 230 km when we have direct measures from a coordinate to coordinate but they don't fly straight so the distance is definetly longer.

So for now I have written a expertise of the causes of death of the eagle to Environmental Inspectorate who should find the responsible people for the killing of the eagle and also the Veterinary- and Food Board is investigating the domestic animal corpses issue, as its illegal to take dead domestic animals into forest of fields.

But as you can think, the local hunters are playing stupid now, saying that they don't know anything about anything. who shot the eagle, who brought the corpses, why the corpses where laid in front of their hunting hut ect. As the land there is owned by government (State Forest Management Centre) and the local hunting club is renting it i hope at least the State Forest Management Centre will take some action quickly and not let those hunters pouch on governmental lands (if they don't help to find the responsible person)

I guess if y'all want to help, you can send some letters to the heads of State Forest Management Centre, Environmental Inspectorate, Environmental Board or Environmental Ministry. I guess the ministry would be the best and send it to the environmental minister would be a good to let know that international community is watching.
So to me, those are the key points.
1) lots of dead animal corpses on the field in front of an hunting hut (mostly domestic animal corpses)
2) the local hunters are playing stupid now, saying that they don't know anything about anything. who shot the eagle, who brought the corpses, why the corpses where laid in front of their hunting hut ect.
3) As the land there is owned by government (State Forest Management Centre) and the local hunting club is renting it
4) not let those hunters pouch on governmental lands (if they don't help to find the responsible person)

Then to break it down further:
*There is a hunting hut.
*Lots of dead animal corpses were found there, mostly domestic animals.
*Local hunters were at the hunting hut.
*The land the hut is on is government property, belonging to the state Forest Management Centre.
*The hunters were poaching on government land.

juta, I did not see a video that showed a building. :puzzled:

We may be getting things confused because here, a hut is a very small building, usually something like one room, used for camping and so on. Can you please tell me where that video is? Thanks. :peek:
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But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Starling » October 22nd, 2012, 11:21 am

:wave: Chimega, the video is on the migration map-topic. Here´s again the link: http://www.reporter.ee/2012/10/11/terve ... asti-maha/

Just a warning for sensitive persons: There is Nimeta´s dead body (or what´s left of it) and other animal corpses shown. :(

And thank you again Chimega for creating the petition and thanks to everyone who have signed it. :thumbs:
Link to the petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/ministr ... gle-nimeta

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Post by juta » October 22nd, 2012, 11:24 am

Chimega, I will send you e mail later this evening.
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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 11:30 am

Starling wrote::wave: Chimega, the video is on the migration map-topic. Here´s again the link: http://www.reporter.ee/2012/10/11/terve ... asti-maha/

Just a warning for sensitive persons: There is Nimeta´s dead body (or what´s left of it) and other animal corpses shown. :(

And thank you again Chimega for creating the petition and thanks to everyone who have signed it. :thumbs:
Link to the petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/ministr ... gle-nimeta
Hi Starling,

OK, I think I have seen that video a couple of times but I didn't notice a building on property, there. I'll have to watch it again. I have seen Nimeta, after Urmas found him. It's never easy but I have seen such things before, having been a veterinary assistant. It will mainly bother me because it is Nimeta, an eagle whose life I have seen and who I came to have feelings for.

And you are very welcome. It is a lot of work to keep up with all of this, making sure the petition is reposted, or bumped in topics in the raptor groups but it is worth it to me. :wave:
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 11:30 am

juta wrote:Chimega, I will send you e mail later this evening.
OK, Juta, thank you. :wave:
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Starling » October 22nd, 2012, 11:33 am

Chimega wrote:Hi Starling,

OK, I think I have seen that video a couple of times but I didn't notice a building on property, there. I'll have to watch it again. I have seen Nimeta, after Urmas found him. It's never easy but I have seen such things before, having been a veterinary assistant. It will mainly bother me because it is Nimeta, an eagle whose life I have seen and who I came to have feelings for.

And you are very welcome. It is a lot of work to keep up with all of this, making sure the petition is reposted, or bumped in topics in the raptor groups but it is worth it to me. :wave:
Were you talking about the "hunting booth" or some other building? :puzzled: The hunting booth is shown, but I don´t know about other buildings.

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Post by Chimega » October 22nd, 2012, 11:41 am

Starling wrote: Were you talking about the "hunting booth" or some other building? :puzzled: The hunting booth is shown, but I don´t know about other buildings.
Hi Starling,

I have never seen that green "hunting booth" before, nor that specific video. That one shows the property a lot better than the others. That building is what we call a "blind" over here. Barely room to sit down and nothing more, if even that. A hut is something different, over here, but over there, the words are just different. Sorry for the confusion but now I see a lot better, the property and where the hunters were. :cry:
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But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

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Post by Felis silvestris » October 22nd, 2012, 6:49 pm

Basically, I think, these are "raised hides", in Germany we have open ones where only one or two people can sit, or closed ones like the one seen there. The dead animals most probably were used to lure kill there (like Nimeta) and like this in an easy way. I don#t think there are more buildings there, judging from the aerial view we also get if we look at the migration map data!
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Post by juta » October 22nd, 2012, 7:29 pm

Felis silvestris wrote:Basically, I think, these are "raised hides", in Germany we have open ones where only one or two people can sit, or closed ones like the one seen there. The dead animals most probably were used to lure kill there (like Nimeta) and like this in an easy way. I don#t think there are more buildings there, judging from the aerial view we also get if we look at the migration map data!
You are absolutely right, Felis Silvestris. And it was there illegally. Hunters hut or whatsoever is a proper building, house often with sauna.
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