About pictures.

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Re: About pictures.

Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 2:40 pm

i see that the discussion has started again about how many pictures is too many and how quickly posted is too quickly posted. above (on the previous page) Hagnat has made a significant contribution to this discussion giving a few good practical points about how to better things. one minor point i'd like to comment: at least Photobucket rescales pictures upon uploading them so one does not need to manipulate one's pictures at all before posting them. cropping pictures requires some extra action with some program at home. cropping pictures i recommend, too, but i must also emphasize the importance of keeping the time stamp in this process. it is very easy: first select and cut out the time stamp, then crop the picture as you like, and finally paste the time stamp back on the picture. that's very simple. without the time stamp the picture is worth less than one 10th of its original value.

i have also thought about the so-called picture problem myself. i see that the problem is twofold: how to encourage the shy people to participate more and post more pictures and how to encourage the active picture-posters to be more selective. these goals may probably be contradictory in that shy people will probably be more self-critical in posting their contributions if/when they see limitations being set in posting.

if some pictures are simply removed or moved somewhere else then these shy people will probably think “is my picture valuable enough to be kept in the main-topic or will it be removed, too?” I’m afraid that after such contemplation the shy person will probably not post her/his picture. I thought that a positive approach to encourage the shy people is more important than limitations.

for limiting the number of pictures there should be clear criteria for what the pictures should be like. so far the only criteria are the limits in the size. I have repeatedly seen statements that there are “too many” pictures, and that they cause “confusion”. sometimes there have also been statements that pictures and/or videos have been posted “too quickly”. once there were also some remarks that posts should be ‘ready’, i.e. posts should contain all the pictures and/or videos that there will be and none should be added in a post afterward. these different forms of criticism raise many questions in my mind. I’ll elaborate these questions in reverse order in the following.

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 2:41 pm

first of all: how quickly is too quickly? and how long one should wait before writing a post about some observation becomes suitable? naturally if the post should be complete with pictures and videos for illustrating the observation then some time lag will be inevitable: uploading pictures and videos (possibly together with some prior processing before uploading) takes a certain amount of time, at least a few minutes even if one has the photohost and Y-tube windows open and ready for uploading.

if everybody complete their posts before posting then all posts with pictures/videos will be somewhat delayed. by the time they are ready to be posted then perhaps something quite different is going on in the live camera. the complete posts will then be past history, old before they even were posted. this request for completeness will therefore easily lead to a ‘warped’ timeline in the recording of events as people would repeatedly ‘turn back time’ by posting about old events. this might increase confusion, which is not desirable. it would also diminish the spontaneity and freshness of the topics and therefore decrease the entertainment value.

- on the other hand: if one, to avoid this confusion in the flow of events, first writes comments about when&what is seen in the live stream and later posts illustrations of this observation then this will lead to two posts being made instead of one.

writing in a foreign language is not simple for many viewers so it will be difficult for them to make quick replies in any way. for some/most English-challenged people posting pictures is the quickest and simplest way to take part in the forum. reading and writing comments will always be a slower way for them to react and they will be underdogs compared to those who have better language skills.

"readable and informative" posts may also be difficult for those members who don't have good English skills. we have many members who have to use some translator robots to be able to understand English text. we all know that these robots often don't give understandable text as translation. this always makes me hesitate when i see that i have written a post which has several lines of text... a Finnish proverb says: "a picture tells more than thousand words". looking at the pictures gives an effortless way to see what has been going on.

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 2:45 pm

if the numbers of pictures need to be limited, then with what criteria? Hagnat just outlined some recommendations about what the pictures should be like but we need simple rules.

the only detailed examples of pictures to be excluded are the pictures where ‘a bird looks left or right’ as far a I have seen. if these pictures are excluded right off then there will be very few pictures left from the brooding period of any nesting. I quite agree that there’s little information value in those pictures except that they show that a parent is brooding at a certain time. the interesting pictures are those where one can see which parent is coming to or going away from nest duty.

little chicks are of course adorable and everyone likes to take hundreds of pictures of their own babies and I agree that it is boring to look at every single picture with interest (I have often pretended to be interested in such occasions; in the forum I can quickly scroll past them), unless the babies are one’s own babies. In this case a separate album is probably the best solution by far. I agree that in cases like these simply deleting the extra pictures is probably the best solution but a bit questionable because it may discourage the shy people from posting their own baby pictures.

we should take a positive approach to this problem: we should describe what kind of pictures we would like to see. taking a positive approach to the too-many-pictures problem, i.e. giving guidelines about what is desirable instead of telling what is not wanted might be more recommendable in order not to discourage the shy.

one point which the people sometimes (often?) bring up is that ‘someone else already posted a comment/a picture about it so I didn’t post my own’ (or even wanted to delete one’s post!). I think this kind of reasoning is quite unnecessary. in fact I think that it is almost the contrary: it is good to have confirmations for observations. how to convince the shy ones about confirmations being important, too? they are especially important in the case of audio observations where pictures will not help and no-one has a video of the event. fortunately we can later look up these events in the Pontu recordings if necessary (if we know the approximate time of the event). people have often several cameras streaming at the same time and sounds get sometimes mixed up. in these cases confirmation is needed from an observer who has had only one camera running (or from Pontu-video).

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 2:48 pm

it seems that more detailed criteria for acceptable (or non-acceptable) pictures are needed than just the maximum size and number per post. if pictures will be deleted there should be something on which the decision can justified to the people whose pictures were eliminated. what should the criteria be like?

should the criteria be based on the scientific value of the pictures? has Urmas or any other ornithologist told us what kind of pictures he/they would like to see in the forum? could they be asked to give their criteria? in my opinion the scientifically important pictures show when and who are in the nest doing what. the time stamp is important for showing when.

in my point of view the exits and arrivals of eagles are important as I’m interested in the division of parental care. it is almost always impossible to get nothing else than more or less blurred pictures of these events because both landings and take-offs are so swift movements. arrivals are more difficult because besides the identity of the eagle it is also important to see whether it brings something or not. different details may not all be clear in one picture alone. exits are usually easier. then one picture is almost always enough.

artistic or humorous pictures increase entertainment value of the topics, but do they add information value? I find that they seldom do so. the entertainment is, however, very important for our members so i think the humorous pictures should also be allowed.

and in the end: will introducing selection criteria increase or decrease the eagerness of the shy people to participate more and post more pictures? will they not look at their pictures with even more critical eyes and decide not to post?

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Post by Marfo » June 5th, 2016, 2:55 pm

Ame, thank you for at least taking this 'issue' seriously. I will read your posts more thouroughly when I have time and come back to you. I have to go now.

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 2:59 pm

Marfo wrote:Well said, Hagnat, nothing to add. Not only in this last post.
Good idea to tell people about cropping. Hopefully it will be of use to other members. It would make the forum (visually) far more attractive and informative. At least more 'readable' than this 'visual blablabla'.
But it is of little use if it is brushed under the carpet as far as possible. Little chance that people who need it the most will come across it and, looking at the (non-) reaction of certain people, there is little chance they will go searching for it.
I really don't understand this policy of LK, since as far as I know the only aim of the complaints is making the forum a better platform for the exchange of information.
They seem to prefer the happiness of a couple of twittering megaposters rather than the (potential) quality of the forum. Spending a lot of money on webcams, but seemingly unwilling to make proper use of it and obstructing well meant attempts to make things better.

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 3:16 pm

i think it is more valuable to make a positive contribution by posting material which one thinks is valuable and worth posting than to point out what kind of material should not be posted. one can thus make an example of what the posts should be like. hopefully others will follow this example.

if there is some material that you think is not worth seeing then scroll to the next post. negative opinions and complaints are unpleasant to read and don't help the progress of the forum. a positive attitude creates a pleasant atmosphere in the forum and reading and looking at pictures and watching videos will be more enjoyable for all.

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Post by Anne7 » June 5th, 2016, 3:29 pm

Hallo everyone!
Reading this discussion doesn't make me happy!
Is it so difficult to be a bit more tolerant and comprehensive?
There is no reason to argue.
This forum belongs to everyone.

Some people like to post pictures, others don't.
Is that a problem?
Some like to watch a lot of pictures, others don't.
I don't see the inconvenience...
Some like to comment, others don't.
So what?
Some like to post a joke, others don't.
Is that a big issue?

Hagnat, you say that Maggy dominates the forum
by posting to many pictures,
but did you ever consider that telling someone how many photos he/she should (not) post is in a way trying to dominate the forum yourself ?!
Is it so difficult to scroll them quickly, if you aren't interested?
We are all adults, aren't we!?
And nobody is more important than the other!

And Maggy, although you don't do something wrong,
and you just like to save and show a lot of pics,
maybe you might consider to select a little bit more,
and just save part of your lovely pictures on your PC, for personal use only?
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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 4:10 pm

Ame, I am no advocate of deleting pictures. I am advocating more understanding by some people of what is the most usefull use of a forum like this. This means explaining to them. 'We' have in the Buzzard forum tried to explain wat 'we' see as a major problem there.

You are interested in documenting 'the exits and arrivals' and 'in the division of parental care'. You are not the only one in this and it are things that matter. But you don't need pictures to record this, let alone three pictures to illustrate it. Just writing it down is enough. Last year I recorded the presence and absense of the female Bittern. No need for picture. If I posted pictures of such event, it was more for the pleasure of the readers.
A slightly different matter is food. To record the frequency of prey delivery and feeding there are no pictures needed. Even now and then to show the readers how it looks like is nice, but every time is in my view unnecessary and therefor too much.
When it comes to what the prey is, pictures can be very usefull, especially when it needs identification or confirmation of identification.

Ame wrote "on the other hand: if one, to avoid this confusion in the flow of events, first writes comments about when&what is seen in the live stream and later posts illustrations of this observation then this will lead to two posts being made instead of one."
In the first place you need to ask how important chronology is in the forum. I don't think in most cases it is that important. As I wrote earlier, "If your observation is worth mentioning, it is not only worth so at this very moment but also later." Of course you need to mention the date/time
In the second place it is not (always) true that to illustrate later you need a second post. As far s I know there is always a 'grace' period to edit posts, sometimes short, sometimes long.
In the topic where I am most active now (Lesser spotted eagle 2) I sometime have only one post a day, composed of an initial post with many additions, including pictures. A whole day in one post. That is a great space-saver, but only because I don't post one or more picture with every word I write.

You wrote a lot, so maybe more later.

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 4:15 pm

Anne7,
Serious discussion can not always be comprehensive. Perhaps you can follow your own advise to others: if it is too much or too difficult for you, scroll them quickly.
Just because the forum 'belongs to everyone' it is important not to scare people away with your way of posting and to listen to what others have to say.
This is not about liking to post pictures or not, but about what pictures are posted, how many and why. Having fun in posting an awful mass of insignificant pictures is no reason to post an awful mass of insignificant pictures, especially not when others are complaining about it.
That you do not see the inconvenience does not take away the inconvenience felt by others. The displeasure is existent and real, whether you see it or not.

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Post by Anne7 » June 5th, 2016, 4:40 pm

Hagnat wrote:Anne7,
Serious discussion can not always be comprehensive. Perhaps you can follow your own advise to others: if it is too much or too difficult for you, scroll them quickly.
Just because the forum 'belongs to everyone' it is important not to scare people away with your way of posting and to listen to what others have to say.
This is not about liking to post pictures or not, but about what pictures are posted, how many and why. Having fun in posting an awful mass of insignificant pictures is no reason to post an awful mass of insignificant pictures, especially not when others are complaining about it.
That you do not see the inconvenience does not take away the inconvenience felt by others. The displeasure is existent and real, whether you see it or not.
Hagmat, you are very rude again... :shock:
Why do you like to hurt people's feelings?

And please, speak for yourself only, and don't try to pretend that many others agree,
I saw several posts of people who are pleased by seeing a lot of pictures.
(And btw, nobody is pleased by the aggressive way you express yourself.)
So please, stop arguing.

If you want to impose your personal rules on a forum,
deciding what pictures should be posted, how many and why,
and deciding what comments should be posted, how many and why,
why don't you start your own forum?
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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 5:01 pm

Hagnat wrote:... You are interested in documenting 'the exits and arrivals' and 'in the division of parental care'. You are not the only one in this and it are things that matter. But you don't need pictures to record this, let alone three pictures to illustrate it. Just writing it down is enough. Last year I recorded the presence and absense of the female Bittern. No need for picture. If I posted pictures of such event, it was more for the pleasure of the readers.
A slightly different matter is food. To record the frequency of prey delivery and feeding there are no pictures needed. Even now and then to show the readers how it looks like is nice, but every time is in my view unnecessary and therefor too much.
When it comes to what the prey is, pictures can be very usefull, especially when it needs identification or confirmation of identification.
...
I sometime have only one post a day, composed of an initial post with many additions, including pictures. A whole day in one post. That is a great space-saver, but only because I don't post one or more picture with every word I write. ...
i don't agree here with you Hagnat: writing down the time of the event is not enough to record it. a picture with the time stamp is necessary as evidence of the event. it is so easy to make a mistake in writing the time by hand. i know because i've done it many times. that's why a picture with time stamp is essential. this should be self-evident for anyone with scientific education.

besides i don't understand the space-saving argument. why is it essential to save space? :puzzled:

i also agree with Anne7: you are not the person who dictates how this forum works. anyone who is not happy in the way things go (when they go the way which the rules allow it) may quite freely stop coming here.

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 5:05 pm

Anne7 wrote: Hagmat, you are very rude again... :shock:
Why do you like to hurt people's feelings? ...
Please explain what the rudeness is in what I wrote. I like to learn.
Not everything you don't agree with is rudeness or an attempt to hurt someone's feelings.
Do you realise what you are doing yourself here?

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 5:16 pm

Hagnat wrote:... You are interested in documenting 'the exits and arrivals' and 'in the division of parental care'. You are not the only one in this and it are things that matter. But you don't need pictures to record this, let alone three pictures to illustrate it. Just writing it down is enough. Last year I recorded the presence and absense of the female Bittern. No need for picture. If I posted pictures of such event, it was more for the pleasure of the readers.
A slightly different matter is food. To record the frequency of prey delivery and feeding there are no pictures needed. Even now and then to show the readers how it looks like is nice, but every time is in my view unnecessary and therefor too much.
When it comes to what the prey is, pictures can be very usefull, especially when it needs identification or confirmation of identification.
...
I sometime have only one post a day, composed of an initial post with many additions, including pictures. A whole day in one post. That is a great space-saver, but only because I don't post one or more picture with every word I write. ...
ame wrote:i don't agree here with you Hagnat: writing down the time of the event is not enough to record it. a picture with the time stamp is necessary as evidence of the event. it is so easy to make a mistake in writing the time by hand. i know because i've done it many times. that's why a picture with time stamp is essential. this should be self-evident for anyone with scientific education.

besides i don't understand the space-saving argument. why is it essential to save space? :puzzled:

i also agree with Anne7: you are not the person who dictates how this forum works. anyone who is not happy in the way things go (when they go the way which the rules allow it) may quite freely stop coming here.
You try to dictate how the time stamps must be written? You are free to go if you don't like it.
Stop saying that I try to dictate when you do not agree with me. Besides, I am not the only one and not everyone can be dictator at the same time.
Is it possible to discuss matters without such accusations?

BTW, have you ever noted that the time stamps on the cam were wrong? I have many times.

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 5:24 pm

time stamps are quite essential. i think that everyone should understand it if one thinks about it just a little. why would the clock be ticking in the picture otherwise in the first place?

how can you know that the camera time is wrong? what is your standard clock?

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 6:02 pm

ame wrote:time stamps are quite essential. i think that everyone should understand it if one thinks about it just a little. why would the clock be ticking in the picture otherwise in the first place?

how can you know that the camera time is wrong? what is your standard clock?
When the cam time is not in accordance with the time in time zone UTC+2, the time of the cam is wrong.
I am pretty sure that you have noticed differences several times yourself.
Usually it are only minutes but I have seen much more.

Of course this is not the subject of this topic.

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Post by Hagnat » June 5th, 2016, 6:55 pm

Here the same screenshot, resized in two different ways.

Screenshot with a width of 1366 pixels, reduced to 800 pixels to comply with the forum limit.
The timestamp was hidden under the bar of JW Player and is not replaced as I usually do.
Image

The same screenshot, cropped to around 450 pixels width and then enlarged to 500, so it is slightly larger than my original.
The time stamp is added by hand.
Image

The pictures in the archive (if available) are bigger than my screenshots and of better quality.

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Post by ame » June 5th, 2016, 8:50 pm

ame wrote:time stamps are quite essential. i think that everyone should understand it if one thinks about it just a little. why would the clock be ticking in the picture otherwise in the first place?

how can you know that the camera time is wrong? what is your standard clock?
Hagnat wrote:When the cam time is not in accordance with the time in time zone UTC+2, the time of the cam is wrong.
I am pretty sure that you have noticed differences several times yourself.
Usually it are only minutes but I have seen much more.

Of course this is not the subject of this topic.
even if the question is off-topic i must repeat my question: what is your standard clock? how do you know what is the correct UTC time + 2 hours?
i have noticed differences of a few, maybe even 10 s - 20 s, but that happens when the stream is not very stable. i compare the camera time with the pc time which is certainly not a time standard. even the grandfather's cuckoo clock on the wall keeps time better than the computer. nowadays they are supposed to get their time signal/reference from the internet but that is no proper reference. i'm sure that the camera time is better. there's probably more or less delay from camera to our time but that's only natural delay in the transmission. i think that the camera time is the best reference time that we can have.

i am certainly not asking anyone to add the time stamp by hand. i am only asking to keep it in the picture in some way. in a post here i have described a simple method with which the time stamp may be kept in the picture:
viewtopic.php?p=463901#p463901

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Post by Jo UK » June 5th, 2016, 9:05 pm

I understand that the time stamp AS SHOWN ON THE CAMERA is necessary for anyone wanting to retrieve the archive film.

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Post by Cessie » June 5th, 2016, 9:27 pm

Ame, I appreciate Maggy's contributions to our forums enormously!
We who depend on reading the chat and seeing the pictures and videos to keep up with our nests.
We can't always follow the nest live, different time zones, job, etc etc.
If or when I see too many pictures that anyone has posted, I just scroll through them, no worries.
I like the regulars who take the time and effort to keep a great record, I like the new people who chat and post pictures, and the people who rarely chat in the forums too!
Everyone is made welcome here, and any new people that are attracted to the nests and lives of the birds is just the best!!!

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