Discussion about ringing + fitting birds with transmitters

Discussions about all issues like transmitters, ringing, hunting
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juta
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Re: Discussion about ringing + fitting birds with transmitte

Post by juta »

Just today noticed wonderful news about Piret

viewtopic.php?p=407977#p407977

If she was never ringed, we would never know about her fate.
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Post by rut »

Felis silvestris wrote:An adult Black Stork weighs around 3 kg, a first-time migrating juvenile 2 1/2. What is 100 g compared to it? IF that tagger weighs 100 g at all, I don't know from where your information about the weight about the tagger is.

On the LBV site the project writes: Der Sender der deutschen Firma e-obs wiegt 57 Gramm - the tagger of the German firm e-obs weighs 57 g, that's about half of the 100 g you mention. And I know that this is the present standard
If first migrating juvenile weights 2 1/2 kg and carries a 57 g transmitter, it is like a 70kg (average weight) human carrying 1.6 kg. If migration effort is comparable to long distance running (and it is exhausting, some birds die on the way), than a 1.6kg backpack is possible of course, but still it is significant. I know from my mochillero times that every kg matters...

(The probably older info about the 100g transmitter was from your link, Felis, the one you translated. This would be equivalent to about 3kg).
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Felis silvestris
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Post by Felis silvestris »

I have moved your post now to this topic, Rut, as a further discussion about transmitters should be held here.

The 100 g never came from me, the translated article states that the tagger the Bavarian Black Storks received weighed 57 g. Even in 2010 taggers used on storks by Microwave technology weighed about 50 g - see link I posted. I don't think that the biologists tagging the birds would use a "backpack" too heavy for the birds. This would be counterproductive for their work.
By the way, the oldest BS with a transmitter was tagged as far back as 2006, and at that time most probably the weight was closer to 100 g than 50 g.
Raivo is a first Black Stork (ring 7014) in Estonia, who got a backpack with GPS transmitter (2006).
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Post by rut »

You are right, the info about 100gr was not from your link but from the link provided by Owlie http://wildlifecenter.org/news_events/n ... bald-eagle

So we are still talking about a 1.6 kg equivalent.

I didn't know a moderator could move someone else's posts without this person's permission :shock:
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asteria
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Post by asteria »

Hope transmitter won't hurt Zulika and will work at least as long as the one of Tõnn and show where she spends next season( one year old storks don't come back and spend summer in their migration place).
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Post by rut »

Asteria, I hope so too :) . 1.6kg burden for a person is not insignificant, but it is not very heavy.

I wonder why the transmitters are nor being attached to adult storks rather than youngsters, who are smaller, weaker, and more in danger of not surviving the first migration. Is it because the youngsters are easier to handle?
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Post by Felis silvestris »

rut wrote:
I didn't know a moderator could move someone else's posts without this person's permission :shock:
Yes, both moderators and administrators can and do if the situation or circumstances make it necessary.
rut wrote:
I wonder why the transmitters are nor being attached to adult storks rather than youngsters, who are smaller, weaker, and more in danger of not surviving the first migration. Is it because the youngsters are easier to handle?
I think in the course of the discussion it was several times mentioned that it IS the youngsters who are important for the ornithologists to monitor because it is their first migration which makes so many not come back. In order to find out how to make this migration more safe for all of them, they need to find out where the dangers on their long journey are and how to eliminate them if possible. For instance electric power lines kill thousands of birds (not only storks) on the way, and further on, trophy hunting idiots (sorry, no other word for such people) all over the southern parts of Europe and northern Africa and Turkey, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and whatever else is on that part of migration, shoot birds (storks, eagles, but also other birds, even small ones) just for the fun of it. In most of the cases it is human made danger that kill them! Of the three tagged storklets from Bavaria none seems to have survived the first migration. Latvia had a project like this before, and as far as I remember, all of them perished as well!

Just to remind you of the facts - it is LESS than 50% of one year's juveniles that do not return from their first migration!
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Post by rut »

Felis, from the reasons you mentioned - electric power lines and hunting - none of them has the predilection for youngsters (unless because they are weaker), so perhaps it doesn't have to be tested particularly on them. I am also not sure there can be any meaningful intervention regarding these two problems. On the other hand, it does make sense to examine those who are the most affected.
Just to make clear - I never said that I object to putting these transmitters on birds. But discussing the way it is done can be fruitful. And at least we can learn something from the discussion.
Why do questions or doubt are perceived as criticism or attack? They are neither...
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Post by asteria »

Felis silvestris wrote: Just to remind you of the facts - it is LESS than 50% of one year's juveniles that do not return from their first migration!
For storklets this figure is 75%. But as far as I know all the storklets survived and reached their migration place don't return next year from their first migration and stay in Africa or Israel.
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Post by Felis silvestris »

rut wrote:Felis, from the reasons you mentioned - electric power lines and hunting - none of them has the predilection for youngsters
even more reason to find out WHAT the dangers are. Power lines definitely are, if you read around the forum a bit, you will find a few stories about that! It is not the adults which are reason for concern and worry, it is the youngsters!
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Post by rut »

Felis silvestris wrote: even more reason to find out WHAT the dangers are. [...] It is not the adults which are reason for concern and worry, it is the youngsters!
OK, you convinced me.
:)
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Post by ame »

Abigyl made a question in the Latvian J-E thread about marking birds in other ways than 'traditional' rings. in the pictures which is embedded in her question the vultures are tagged with wing markers.:
On 11 Feb 2016, 15:48 Abigyl wrote:... From time to time, I see in other countries another system of ringing.

Like in Spain, as you can see here :
http://birds-extremadura.blogspot.co.il ... -seen.html

It's much easier to identify the bird, even from very far. Why isn't it common in more places?
i must admit that these wing tags look rather severe to me. i can't help thinking that they may be painful. (on the other hand humans wear earrings and other pierced jewellery without pain so why not, perhaps it's ok... but?)

Trine wrote a comment with rather similar thoughts as mine:
On 11 Feb 2016, 15:57 Trine wrote:I am not an expert, but this wing tagging of birds seems quite unnatural to me. :unsure:
Birds are not Christmas trees. (Maybe these tags are only temporary, I do not know however.)
maybe someone of our bird experts could enlighten us, please. :help:
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Post by Janne+Ais »

ame wrote:...
i must admit that these wing tags look rather severe to me. i can't help thinking that they may be painful. (on the other hand humans wear earrings and other pierced jewellery without pain so why not, perhaps it's ok... but?)
...
Ame, here in Germany the buzzards are also marked with such wing tags. I often see and photograph one and report it to the local ornithologist. It is really very good to read and my impression is, that the birds don't care at all. I suppose, otherwise they wouldn't do it this way. In coming spring/summer I will accompany the ornithologist and watch the marking. After that I surely can tell you more, if you like.
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Post by Abigyl »

Janne+Ais wrote:
Ame, here in Germany the buzzards are also marked with such wing tags. I often see and photograph one and report it to the local ornithologist. It is really very good to read and my impression is, that the birds don't care at all. I suppose, otherwise they wouldn't do it this way. In coming spring/summer I will accompany the ornithologist and watch the marking. After that I surely can tell you more, if you like.
Thanks ! :hi:
Hope there will be an answer because it is an interesting subject.
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Post by ame »

it turned out to be rather difficult to find information in the web about wing tagging birds. here's one reliable looking source which i found. it's from a book "Raptors: A Field Guide to Survey and Monitoring" by Jon Hardey:
https://books.google.fi/books?id=_8MJMJ ... gs&f=false

it seems that usually the tags don't disturb the birds much more than earrings disturb us. there are listed also some disadvantages that have been noticed. the wing tags don't suit all bird species equally well.
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Post by Konrad »

Climbing in tall trees to ring birds is understandably not without dangers. It was told in news, that an elderly and very experienced Finnish ringer had experinced some kind of an accident on Wednesday this week and lost his life.

The news are very obscure and it has not been told if the man had fallen, or what had actually happened.

This much has been told in two newspapers: the man has been ringing birds at least from the 70’s. He was already retired from the work life because of his age, but has still continued to ring birds. He took part into a project for ringing ospreys from its beginning in 1971 and the lethal accident obviously happened at an ospreys nest. The nest tree is artificial, a man-made high pole in a forest with wet ground. For some reason he had left to the nest on Wednesday alone, intending to ring the nestling(s). When he did not come home, an alarm was done and the rescue units went to search for him. The terrain was very difficult and it took time to get to the nest. It is said that nothing could be done there any more.

The news are unfortunately only in Finnish:
http://www.aamulehti.fi/kotimaa/ihminen ... akoskella/
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016063 ... 7_uu.shtml
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Post by alice44 »

In the US I know Condors are tagged on their wings.
They are very endangered. There about 120 pairs and they typically soar very high, so the big visible numbers help people follow them.


I think I remember that penguin tags-- flipper bands -- hurt their survival chances. Yes, I looked it up. Hurt their chances by 20-25%.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -breeding/

It was a French study so there should be articles in other languages.


I think the big danger for Condors is lead poisoning, so bands would not have any effect on that.
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Post by UteL. »

UteL. wrote:
My husband would also gladly finance a transmitter for the black storks something. However, it is unsure how such transmitters are installed.

Here is from Latvia a picture from 2016, made by Liznm.


Image


Can someone explain how the transmitter is attached to the stork's body? How long does this operation take?


He worries, thank you
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Post by Liz01 »

@ Ute L. I found that:

Frequently Asked Questions about Eagle Transmitters. I think, it is the same way by the Storks.

https://www.wildlifecenter.org/frequent ... ansmitters

and here for little birds
http://web2.uwindsor.ca/courses/biology ... telem.html


examble video
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Post by UteL. »

Liz01 wrote:@ Ute L. I found that:

Frequently Asked Questions about Eagle Transmitters. I think, it is the same way by the Storks.

https://www.wildlifecenter.org/frequent ... ansmitters

and here for little birds
http://web2.uwindsor.ca/courses/biology ... telem.html
Oh, wonderful ... this happens at the nest? Then can the bird return immediately to the nest?

Thank you :wave:
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