Discussion of Hunting

Discussions about all issues like transmitters, ringing, hunting
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Liis
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Re: Discussion of Hunting

Post by Liis » January 23rd, 2011, 9:43 pm

To finish off the Swedish wolf hunt season - don't know if it made the news elsewhere, but pro-wolf activists drove one group of wolves across the border to Norway. :innocent:

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Post by Jo UK » January 23rd, 2011, 10:48 pm

alice44 wrote:Vermin -- I think my first contact with that word -- other than rats and lice and fleas was pole cats -- and I thought WAIT what is so terrible about Pole cats and what are Pole Cats (since we do not have them here). Given that Pole cats probably eat mostly rats, voles and the like I am not sure why the game warden hated them so much, maybe for eating the eggs of game birds. (We were rather cross when the Martin made off with one of Klaara's eggs -- but after the fact I was kind of glad it got one, of course especially as it was only one, I kept thinking how hard it was to feed 4 little owlets and how much tougher it would have been with 5).

Dictionary says -

Vermin
1. noxious, objectionable, or disgusting animals collectively, esp. those of small size that appear commonly and are difficult to control, as flies, lice, bedbugs, cockroaches, mice, and rats.
2. an objectionable or obnoxious person, or such persons collectively.
3. animals that prey upon game, as coyotes or weasels.

And a polecat seems to be any kind of weasel! We have weasels here, but not polecats. I think that is only a language difference.

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Post by alice44 » January 23rd, 2011, 11:23 pm

Jo, I burst into laughter at #2.

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Post by Jo UK » January 24th, 2011, 9:59 pm

I suppose I could have deleted that, but one doesn't like to interfere with dictionaries! :laugh:

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Post by Liis » January 25th, 2011, 2:15 am

More about Swedish wolves:
Correction: 2 alfa wolves - one male, one female - were shot in the recent hunt, and 5 transmitter-tagged ones.
The scientists who tagged them were not unduly worried. The point with having them tagged was that they should be and behave and fare as wolves do, so no special treatment, even in the hunt.
But 5 tagged in the total allowance of 20 does seem a rather high proportion.

There are plans for importing some wolves form abroad for more genetic variation, but Estonian wolves are probably excluded: some evidence has been found of dogs crossed in.

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Post by Liis » August 20th, 2011, 3:15 pm

In the news in Sweden this week:
A report on illegal shooting and the wolf population in Sweden has just been published.
The report, Shoot, shovel and shut up, link below, estimates that roughly half of the wolves that die each year may be killed illegally (poaching and ”cryptic poaching”).

Of the adult wolves in Sweden about 30% die each year. As said above, half from illegal killings and the remainder in about equal numbers from legal hunting, traffic accidents, ”natural causes” (such as old age, illnesses, drowning (!)).

It has been calculated that without poaching there would be about 1000 wolves in Sweden now instead of the present 200-250+.
There will be no general hunt this year, hotly debated last year. 28 wolves were shot in last year’s licensed hunt.

Some maintain that legal hunting decreases the illegal hunting, and would in fact be positive for the Swedish wolf population.

Link to the poaching report, in English, much statistical calculations Shoot, shovel and shut up
(or go to rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org, publications Series B, look for free downloads ...)
A summary on wolves in Sweden in general, packed with facts, from Swedish Association for Hunting (in Swedish) http://www.jagareforbundet.se/Viltet/Vi ... oner/Varg/

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Post by JanE » August 20th, 2011, 8:09 pm

Yes :bash:

EU put a stop on wolf hunting in Sweden.

I just can't understand how shooting animals for pleasure can be allowed.

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Post by Liis » August 22nd, 2011, 12:09 pm

JanE wrote:Yes :bash:

EU put a stop on wolf hunting in Sweden.

I just can't understand how shooting animals for pleasure can be allowed.
They say it is not for pleasure, it is strictly caring for wildlife. As a matter of fact the full name of the Swedish hunters' association is the Swedish Association for Hunting and Wildlife Management (Svenska Jägareförbundet)

Many hunters surely care truly for nature and wildlife, and do their hunting as a conscientous part of that (and of course it is allowable to like to do what you do).
And true, we have a nature that is no longer "natural", and that cannot keep itself in balance everywhere and at all times.

However, I am equally sure that there are many hunters for whom the pleasure of shooting is the important aspect. There are many for instance who advocate and keep up far too numerous populations of deer, elks etc to be sure of successful shooting in the hunting season. Natural competitors such as wolves, lynxes etc are of course persecuted.

An ever-surprising fact is the general great aversion, not to say hate, towards wolves as compared to bears. There are some 3000 bears in Sweden and 200+ wolves.
About 300 bears are to be shot this season (licensed and protective hunting).
Bears have injured many more humans than wolves have.
Do bears look "nicer"? Is it that a wolf is less terrifying to hate and hunt than a bear - better chance of hunter "winning"?

(Oh, about wildlife: Raccoon dogs and real raccoons are pressing on to invade Sweden from Denmark ...)

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Post by alice44 » November 18th, 2011, 4:33 am

I have to admit I don't much like the idea of hunting, but I think the hunter who has posted in the boar thread has a point about dealing with the RDs with mange. Humans control the vast range of the environment and it is up to us to limit the damage of an introduced animal -- and because the overall space for them is limited allowing them just to be sick and spread the disease does not sound good.

I am just glad as can be I am not the one who has to do it.

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Post by alice44 » November 18th, 2011, 4:38 am

But this mad desire to kill wolves seems way over the top.

"Hunters Have Killed More than 180 Wolves in the Northern Rockies"

The whole of Idaho is open season on wolves and a permit is only 11.00. If they have any kind of inspections, I don't see how that could cover the costs -- well they have sold a lot of permits.

From the story: In April, Congress removed gray wolves in the northern Rockies from Endangered Species Act (ESA) protection. Since then, Idaho and Montana have sold nearly 37,000 wolf tags for fall hunts. As of November 11, some 114 wolves had been shot in Idaho, and 67 in Montana. Idaho plans to continue hunting through the winter of 2012, and will allow the state’s estimated 700 to 1,000 wolves to be reduced to no more than 150. If hunters and trappers fail to destroy enough, state officials promise to launch airborne search and destroy operations. Montana officials recently extended wolf season from the end of December to January 31, 2012 in hopes of killing 220 of their estimated 556 to 645 wolves. In Wyoming, Governor Matt Mead recently signed an agreement with Interior Secretary Ken Salazar that will protect a remnant population of 100 to 150 to survive near Yellowstone National Park, but allow wolves to be classified as vermin and shot-on-sight in 80 percent of the state; hunts could begin there next spring.

and there is lots more, but it is too depressing
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news ... -2011.html

Given that they do not know if there are 1000 or only 750 wolves in Idaho, how on earth are they going to know when they are down to 100 left?

And what are they going to do when the deer and mountain lion populations shoot up? I don't think mountain lions kill quite as many cows, but they follow the deer in to towns and occasionally attack people. Wolves on the other hand, rarely attack people. I am not sure I know of any cases, of wolves attacking people, but I think there was one somewhere.

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Post by Liis » January 28th, 2012, 11:46 pm

In today's news in Sweden:
An elk-hunter was injured by a bear in north Sweden (Kilafors) today. The bear had been woken up by the elk-hunter's dog (I thought the elk-hunting season was past?); the man was bitten in the head after having shot at and probably hit the bear; man survived but is "seriously injured".

Bear will be tracked and shot tomorrow. People are advised to stay away from the forests meanwhile.
(Report from Swedish TV HERE; in Swedish, but video of snowy forest + map )
There are about 3200 bears in Sweden. Two people have been killed in "modern" times, in 2004 (first case since 1902) and 2007. According to the Environmental Board there are 1-2 "bear incidents" per year resulting in some injuries, nearly all involving hunters.

Again, strange difference in public reactions to bears and wolves. Not much uproar against bears.

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Post by Liis » March 31st, 2012, 1:56 pm

Radio says just now that many Swedish hunters now refuse to help the police to search for wild animals hurt in car accidents (a very great number each year).
Until the wolf number limit is set at 210 animals, and permissions to hunt wolves will be issued they will not help.

Reason (from hunters): the elk hunt result was much poorer than usual, because wolves are too many in places.
Hunters also state that they cannot risk using hunting dogs in the forest, because unleashed tracking dogs may be attacked.

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Post by macdoum » March 31st, 2012, 4:23 pm

Liis wrote:Radio says just now that many Swedish hunters now refuse to help the police to search for wild animals hurt in car accidents (a very great number each year).
Until the wolf number limit is set at 210 animals, and permissions to hunt wolves will be issued they will not help.

Reason (from hunters): the elk hunt result was much poorer than usual, because wolves are too many in places.
Hunters also state that they cannot risk using hunting dogs in the forest, because unleashed tracking dogs may be attacked.
On what do they base their reasoning :puzzled: ? wolves attacking dogs ? Thats a new one. :slap:
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Post by Liis » March 31st, 2012, 9:17 pm

Well, dogs have been attacked and even killed. Even hunting dogs.
There is a very different animal keeping style, and very different breeds of animals today from, say, 150-200 years ago (wolves were practically extinct in Sweden 1860-1980).
Then, dogs in the country were kept to frighten and drive off dangers such as wolves. I am sure some got killed in the process too, but they were replaced without much ado.
The hunter's dogs today are (usually) much more expensive and much more personal to him. And are probably trained for more sophisticated hunting strategies, and so less good at simple, straightforward raw wolf-scaring.

There are good, conscientious and responsible hunters who husband their lands and wildlife carefully, and hunt to keep all in balance (quite acceptable to like what you must do, too). But sadly, only too many hunt for the sake of hunting. Roe deer and elk populations are happily kept vastly overstocked, to ensure good hunting in season. Wolves and lynxes are regarded as competition. So there "overpopulation" is an evil to be avoided at all costs ...

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Post by alice44 » March 31st, 2012, 9:52 pm

I think here one successful way of keeping wolves away from the animals is to keep trained dogs with the animals. Of course I think they use large dogs, not hunting dogs for this task.

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Post by Liis » April 3rd, 2012, 12:47 pm

There was a very interesting radio programme the same day, "looking behind the statements" - all kinds, but wolves came up.

Wildlife and statistics expert: per 10 000 dogs 3,4 are killed by wolves compared to 22 in traffic (in an above-average wolf-rich area of Sweden).
Probably not only killed outright but lethally injured.

It would be 1 dog per hunter's lifetime, calculated on 10 000 lifetime hunting days.
The traffic risk is 7-8 times greater.
But - said the expert - hunters use, like and need their cars. They will accept the far greater risk, because they want to have and enjoy the cars. They don't like wolves. So, no rational arguments will ever help.

Hunters' association replied bluntly: Traffic risks have been reduced, can be eliminated. Wolves are absolutely greatest risk for dogs.

Illustration of an impasse situation.

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Post by Liis » December 24th, 2012, 3:11 am

A peaceful Christmas to all, including wolves, deer, foxes, eagles ... :innocent:

http://www.postimees.ee/1080394/jahimeh ... tallinnas/
Tartu Postimees, published December 19, 2012:
Hunters proclaimed this year’s Christmas hunting moratorium in Tallinn
The hunting moratorium lasts during December 24th, 25th and 26th. On these days hunters visit the woods with their families and bring food for the animals.
The tradition of proclaiming hunting peace started in 1993 in Heimtal in Viljandimaa, and the proclamation ceremony is held in a different place each year. This year the hunting peace is proclaimed for the 20th time.
The hunting moratorium is not a legal requirement but an agreement between hunters on their own initiative; with this they show their respect for nature as well as society. Several hunting societies proclaim a longer peace period

A neighbourly coexistence with wild animals and birds is only possible when populations are regulated so that there is living space and food for each species, Edgar Savisaar, Mayor of Tallinn said on proclaiming this year’s hunting moratorium.
Mr Savisaar emphasized that hunters must see to the balance between men and wild animals.
«It is a worthy mission which makes for not only taking but also giving back to nature in return for its generous gifts", Mr Savisaar said.
Mr Savisaar acknowledged the Estonian Hunters' Society's beautiful and humane custom of proclaiming peace for the Christmas period. «This year when we once more have a white Christmas the need of birds and animals for extra food is greater because it is difficult to reach food beneath the thick snow cover.»
«Forest visits of hunters at Christmas will again be without bangs and no forest inhabitant has to fear for its life,» Mr Savisaar said. «A number of them will however certainly have a pleasant surprise of vegetables and grain brought as gifts. The joy of giving is said to be greater than of receiving. I wish you beautiful experiences of these days when you move about in the forest without firearms and hunter’s pouch, as reward for the care and money that you spend! I wish you all success, good luck and a Happy Christmas. Let there hereby be hunting peace!”
The Eesti Jahimeeste Selts festively proclaimed the hunting moratorium in Estonian forests during Christmas this evening in the Kadrioru hunters’ Centre.

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Post by Liis » December 28th, 2012, 7:13 pm

Wolves …
Next year’s scheduled ”selective” wolf hunt in Sweden will probably not come about, after EU censure. Discussions of how many – or few - wolves are needed for a genetically healthy wolf population are long-standing and heated. Most recent authoritative bids varied from 240 to around 400.

Meanwhile, for all who have not yet listened to it, here is the link to Laul huntidest - Song of Wolves (Peep Männil, Kalev Plink, Ajutine Valitsus) and below song text in Estonian; English translation of contents in next post. Enjoy!

Laul huntidest - Song of Wolves
Kalev Plink / Peep Männil, Ajutine Valitsus

Läbi talviste laante ja külmunud soode
Kus pakasest pauguvad härmatand kased
Näib lõputu rada, see lume sees lookleb
Selle lõpetab magamisase

Soed liikunud siia on koidikuveerel
Neist hommikupäikene miskit ei tea
Siia puhkama jäänud on kiskjate pere
Koht on siin nii vaikne ja hea

Refr:
Piki rabaäärt looklevat seljakuvalli
Seal sörgivad rivis predaatorid hallid
Nad lähevad kuhugi vastu on tuul
Ja sealt kust nad tulid, sinna maha jäid luud


Kus kõnnumaa laiub või suured on laaned
Siin on tema kodu, siin on tema koht
On elama asunud ääremaale
Siin väiksem on ähvardav oht

On hundile sajandeid sõdasid peetud
Ja mürki on toidule segatud lisaks
Küll on teda vannutud, on teda neetud
Ta ikka on jäänud, on visa

Refr: ...
On hundiulg tekitand paljudes õudu
Ei julgetud minna siis välja kui pime
On kardetud huntide mõistust ja jõudu
Ei julgetud öelda ta nime

Ta jumalast pole, vaid saatanast loodud
Ja loitsuga kaitseti tema eest karja
Libahuntide pähe sai tüdrukuid poodud
Ja pimedus teda vaid varjas

Refr: ...

Nüüdseks alles on laaned ja alles on rabad
Ja sõda on läbi ja needus on maas
Tema koduks on metsad, siin sööb ta ja magab
Siin sigib ja järglasi saab

Läbi talviste laante ja külmunud soode
Kus pakasest pauguvad härmatand kased
Näib lõputu rada, see lume sees lookleb
Siin on tema kodu ja ase

Refr 2x

Looduskalender about 2013 - the year of the wolf

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Post by Liis » December 28th, 2012, 7:21 pm

... Contents of Song of Wolves, in English
Song text, in Estonian, see previous post
Song here, YouTube

Laul huntidest - Song of Wolves
Kalev Plink / Peep Männil, Ajutine Valitsus

Through wintery woods and frozen marshes
With birches in hoarfrost cracking from cold
An endless trail winds in the snow,
Leads to a lie

Wolves moved in here before early light
The morning sun knows nothing of them
The predator family rests here
A peaceful and pleasant place

Chorus:
Along the bog on a meandering ridge
Trots a grey predator row
Going somewhere, against the wind
And from where they came bones remain


Where wasteland spreads and forests are wide
here is home, his place is here
Settled on the outskirts of land,
Less threatening dangers to fear

Against wolves centuries of wars were fought
And poison mixed in food
He has been d amned, he has been cursed
Yet he persists, he is tough

Chorus: .....

Wolf howls have bred horror and fright
None dared go out in the night
The mind and power of wolves was feared
His name must not be said

He is not from god but devil-created
Spells were cast to protect herds
Girls were hung for werewolves
And the darkness only sheltered him.

Chorus: .....

Now forests remain, marshes remain
And the war is past and the curses are withdrawn
Its home is the forests, for sleep, for food,
For mating and young

Across wintery forests and frozen bogs
With birches in hoarfrost cracking from cold
An endless trail meanders in the snow
Here is his home and lie

Chorus 2x

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Post by asteria » December 30th, 2012, 10:10 pm

Which birds of prey(I know about falcons and hawks) are used for hunting?

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