Estonian Osprey Nests ~ Madis & Piret ~ DISCUSSION~ 2014

Locked
User avatar
Kukelke
Registered user
Posts: 3595
Joined: July 16th, 2012, 3:09 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Estonian Osprey Nests ~ Madis & Piret ~ DISCUSSION~ 2014

Post by Kukelke » October 9th, 2014, 10:04 pm

Janne+Ais wrote:For me it is interesting. One can read, that ospreys are not faithful to their partners but to their nest. Madis and Piret disprove this theory.
It is true that ospreys are faithful to their nest, and this nest loyalty in turn leads to the same pair occupying their nest or nests year after year, until one partner dies and is replaced by a new partner. But this is only a general, basic rule, it's not written in stone for all eternity.

Some ospreys, but far from all, do have a second nest. These second nests again, are sometimes merely a heap of sticks, not even big enough to raise a clutch of chicks in, and sometimes they develop into real nests.
One reason why they sometimes build a second nest could be that when fishing is good for the male, and he can easily provide for his family, he has time left on his hands (or rather talons). Another reason why this sometimes happens, is when a pair of ospreys are early breeders in the season. By the time their chicks have fledged, it's still too early to migrate, and the adults are still in breeding mode, so they (mostly the male) keep collecting sticks. The third reason is that they often build an second nest when a breeding attempt fails, and it's still too early to migrate etc. Such a nest is then called a "frustration nest".

Last year Piret and Madis' breeding attempt failed, after all the hassle with Oxana, and the fights between Piret and Oxana which followed. When Piret finally reclaimed her nest and Oxana was driven off, it was already too late to breed, and after a week or so they only visited the nest sporadically. Therefore it is not unlikely that Piret and Madis did build a second or frustation nest last year (or extended an already existing second nest), and that they this year decided to breed there.

When Madis arrived this spring, he began with restorations on the old nest, but when Piret also arrived, these 'nestorations' stopped within a few days. This makes me believe that Piret, as the female she is, chose the other nest to breed in (in many species -often including the human species :mrgreen: - it's the female who has the last word when a nesting site is picked; the male only presents possible nesting sites).


And when you are a male osprey called Monty, there's a fourth reason to build a second nest...:
Sometimes we hear people talk about ospreys building 'frustration nests'. These are birds starting to build an additional nest close to their primary nest. But why?

Frustration nests are usually associated with birds that have failed to breed in a particular year or birds that have finished breeding early. The Glaslyn male osprey is a classic example of this type of behaviour.

Because both Glaslyn ospreys return to breed so early in the year (they usually have chicks by mid May!) they also, therefore, finish earlier. However, their biological clocks tell then that it's not time to return to Africa (or southern Europe, we don't know) yet. Problem is, the birds are still in 'breeding mode' in late July and August despite their offspring having fledged the nest weeks previously.

So a convenient interpretation for birds building supplementary 'frustration' nests (only a few sticks though usually) is this pent up urge the birds have do breed because they are still at their breeding site and breeding time of year. A classic 'displacement behaviour' where an animal's basic drive (in this case to breed) is frustrated owing to the fact that the chicks are well and truly grown up!

So with all that cleared up then, what on earth is Monty doing here in mid/end of July..

[youtube]1ykPDtwKhGU&feature=player_detailpage&list=UUk70QelhKG9mVuj7jN4I5Cg#t=1[/youtube]

He's not failed to breed, he's not early (in fact, he's very late) and the chicks are only four and a bit weeks old. This camera pole was here last year and we saw no such behaviour then, but since around July 20th this year Monty has started to build himself a second nest - just feet away from his main nest.

How very, very bizarre!

Just when we think we're starting to understand these wonderful birds, they go and prove how utterly naive we all are. How very humbling. Please do suggest an explanation if you have one in the comments below of what Monty is up to, because I have absolutely no idea!

UPDATE: August 4th.

We asked Roy Dennis what he thought Monty was doing, here's his response. Thanks Roy.

Some males do a lot of building as the chicks grow in the nest - it makes the nest flat and also more secure for the following year, but it is rare that nests have an obvious extra base just above them. The camera array top encourages the male to have the new nest at the most prominent place rather than down below the structure. He would prefer to use the highest site as it will have 360 degree vis and approach, if it was still there next spring he would use it.

This is what Monty's new nest looks like now, August 4th!!
Image

http://www.dyfiospreyproject.com/blog/2 ... frustrated

Owlie
Registered user
Posts: 3895
Joined: May 3rd, 2013, 7:24 pm

Post by Owlie » October 9th, 2014, 10:21 pm

Kukelke wrote: ...This is what Monty's new nest looks like now, August 4th!! ...
Isn't life wonderful! And Monty's nest with a second floor!
The video review is a really nice season view of an osprey family life.

User avatar
javabird
Registered user
Posts: 240
Joined: August 24th, 2012, 5:45 am

Post by javabird » October 10th, 2014, 6:11 am

Someone said that it's the female osprey chooses the nest to breed.
Compare with Maya in Rutland, Piret didn't stay around the cam nest these two years.
So I think she probably won't come back here to breed next year.
I hope Urmas or somebody can help them to make the new nest solid,
just like Perkons & Lauma's nest. I really hope Piret can have a successful breeding
next year, and most important, someone can take off her broken transmitter.

User avatar
Bea
Moderator
Posts: 24475
Joined: January 15th, 2011, 1:02 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Post by Bea » October 10th, 2014, 10:45 am

Here are the pictures Urmas took of the Osprey (possibly Madis), who appeared also on the place when Tiiu was trapped.
Pics are taken from quite far distance.

Image
©Urmas Sellis

Image
©Urmas Sellis

Image
©Urmas Sellis

Image
©Urmas Sellis

Image
©Urmas Sellis

I can see a metal ring right leg and maybe we can find pics to compare darker patch of plumage on the throat or other characteristics .....?
Nature does nothing in vain (Aristoteles)

User avatar
Bea
Moderator
Posts: 24475
Joined: January 15th, 2011, 1:02 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Post by Bea » October 10th, 2014, 10:57 am

Two enlarged crops, to make ring better visible

Image

Image
Nature does nothing in vain (Aristoteles)

User avatar
Kukelke
Registered user
Posts: 3595
Joined: July 16th, 2012, 3:09 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Kukelke » October 10th, 2014, 11:24 am

I just looked at old pictures of Madis, and the size and coloration on his breast patch look identical with the osprey Urmas photographed near the fish farm where Tiiu was trapped and fitted with her transmitter. Also the head markings look pretty similar.

Furthermore, this bird has a metal ring on his right leg (just as Madis has), and was seen in the same area as where Madis has his nest(s). As far as I know ringed Estonian ospreys have both a metal and a plastic ring, but Finnish ospreys often have a metal ring only. And we know that Madis was ringed on a nest in Finland.

It would be rather unlikely if there was another adult osprey there who looked similar to Madis, has only a metal ring on his right leg, just as Madis has, and who is around at Madis' fishing grounds.

Owlie
Registered user
Posts: 3895
Joined: May 3rd, 2013, 7:24 pm

Post by Owlie » October 10th, 2014, 8:57 pm

Madis looks so elegant and majestic on that narrow stick of a branch ...
Is it a raven flying by in the picture of two birds - which Madis seems to take cool and rather regardless ...?

User avatar
Chimega
Registered user
Posts: 2354
Joined: July 12th, 2012, 7:49 am
Location: Iowa

Post by Chimega » October 21st, 2014, 3:03 pm

Bea wrote:Now we know more about how this season went on for Piret and Madis ..... Image

http://www.looduskalender.ee/en/node/21290

It explains a bit more their behaviour on later appearances on the nest.
Very, very sad news, indeed. Yes, they are probably still together as a pair, if that was their nest, but so sad that a 2nd year went by with no living offspring. I hope that is not the case this next year and we will see them, again.

:cry:
The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

User avatar
Kukelke
Registered user
Posts: 3595
Joined: July 16th, 2012, 3:09 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Kukelke » October 21st, 2014, 6:02 pm

Most osprey researchers operate with numbers telling that 0,8-1,25 produced fledglings per active nest each year is enough to maintain a given population.
So in this regard Piret & Madis have still done their job, with an average production of 1 chick per year (3 chicks in 2012, 0 in 2013, 0 in 2014 : 3 = 1).

Fingers and talons crossed that both return safe and sound next spring and produce a nice clutch of 3 fledglings again, preferably on their old and solid nest, so we can watch them without having to fear much for another nest structure collapse.

User avatar
Birdfriend
Registered user
Posts: 8642
Joined: July 19th, 2014, 2:47 pm

Post by Birdfriend » October 21st, 2014, 8:23 pm

It makes me so sad that to read. I hope for Madis and Piret that they have more luck in the next year!Maybe, the eaglemens can make safe the second nest. :unsure:
The nature needs us not, but we need the nature

Urmas
Registered user
Posts: 1083
Joined: October 27th, 2008, 7:44 am
Location: Estonia

Post by Urmas » January 5th, 2015, 11:55 pm

Finally got DNA analyses results form 2012 samples.
Those were sent to our Italian colleague Flavio Montti, and he managed to make analyses in France.
So the results of 2012:
Estonia S8 M
Estonia S9 M
Estonia S7 F

For control sent also caught adults DNA

Estonia S0 F (Piret)
Estonia S5 F (Irma)
Estonia S6 ? (did not work out) (Ilmar)

Best wishes for new year!
Urmas

User avatar
Bea
Moderator
Posts: 24475
Joined: January 15th, 2011, 1:02 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Post by Bea » January 6th, 2015, 1:14 am

Thank you Urmas, for these news, many fans waited for this info :thumbs:

Just to bring it back to our minds, these are the genders of chicks from the first Estonian Osprey season in 2012 (Piret & Madis):

S7 - Nori - female

S8 - Uno - male

S9 - Elo - male

Link to summary of season 2012
viewtopic.php?p=135899#p135899
Nature does nothing in vain (Aristoteles)

User avatar
Janne+Ais
Registered user
Posts: 1324
Joined: March 29th, 2013, 6:43 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Janne+Ais » January 6th, 2015, 10:24 am

Urmas wrote:Estonia S6 ? (did not work out) (Ilmar)
Thank you Urmas!
Very interesting, that it is so difficult.

Thank you Bea!

User avatar
lispet
Registered user
Posts: 1347
Joined: July 1st, 2012, 9:31 pm
Location: Tampere, Finland

Post by lispet » January 6th, 2015, 5:33 pm

Thank you, interesting information!
Maybe we will meet them in a few months ?? :shock: :thumbs:

Urmas
Registered user
Posts: 1083
Joined: October 27th, 2008, 7:44 am
Location: Estonia

Post by Urmas » January 7th, 2015, 9:02 am

In general, DNA analyses are not so difficult issue, but this time our colleagues investigated other genetical aspects and btw performed sexing analyse. Genetics tell that Osprey is not the best species for genetical sexing, I don't know why exactly.
Probably getting together sufficient amount of samples took more time.

Yes, there is some probability that we can see those familiar Ospreys somewhere. During the nest controls we photograph almost adults at nests and that is made to see the rings. Also the change of mates at nests is possible to see comparing the plumage (you know that well).

The sample of Ilmar was not in such good condition (think DNA damaged by some reason at storage, fungi, etc) to determine the sex chromosomes. Know that four times was tried and then given up. Fortunately we know well about Ilmar without of genetical approach.

Owlie
Registered user
Posts: 3895
Joined: May 3rd, 2013, 7:24 pm

Post by Owlie » January 7th, 2015, 8:56 pm

Thank you Urmas - this kind of scientific information is a treasure for us!

We'll see, if we meet one/some of the M/P chicks from 2012 this season- it would be a dream like experience!

User avatar
asteria
Registered user
Posts: 7857
Joined: February 6th, 2009, 9:37 am

Post by asteria » January 16th, 2015, 5:47 pm

Elo is a male? Then meierlein should urgently correct her signature! :dunno:

brusnika
Registered user
Posts: 37
Joined: March 25th, 2013, 10:17 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by brusnika » March 12th, 2015, 1:35 pm

Hello! Will be enabled camera-2015 in the nests of our favorite ospreys?

User avatar
Bea
Moderator
Posts: 24475
Joined: January 15th, 2011, 1:02 pm
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Post by Bea » March 12th, 2015, 2:16 pm

Of course we hope for at least one Osprey Webcam, but which one and when it will come online is still not known.

It is still early in this season, last two years cameras came online on March, 27 - April, 5, - April, 16 - April, 9.
Nature does nothing in vain (Aristoteles)

brusnika
Registered user
Posts: 37
Joined: March 25th, 2013, 10:17 am
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Post by brusnika » March 12th, 2015, 6:06 pm

Thank you! It seemed to me that in early April, 2 years ago a couple was already sitting on eggs, the second was prepared. :rolleyes:

Locked

Return to “Osprey Webcam Forum”