Following Karls' Families

Migration Maps, Tõnn, Greater Spotted Eagle and Black Storks
Post Reply
Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Re: Following Karl's Family

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 1:23 pm

Anne7 wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 12:54 pm
... About the flight height ...
:hi: Anne,
TY for comment, but I still haven't information what is the (minimal and optimal) high for crossing (by flapping) the sea :puzzled:
Liz wrote: Päike does not fly very high (218m) ... (https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 83#p617983)

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 3533
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » October 10th, 2018, 3:31 pm

Solo wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 1:23 pm
:hi: Anne,
TY for comment, but I still haven't information what is the (minimal and optimal) high for crossing (by flapping) the sea :puzzled:
Liz wrote: Päike does not fly very high (218m) ... (https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 83#p617983)
Sorry for my late reply, Solo
Waiting for any news about Päike is unnerving, so I went away for a while.

The only scientific info that I have about flight speed and altitude is this.
(I posted it before.)
A figure showing flight altitudes and speed of BS in a small case study. But that is above the land.
Image
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 5.full.pdf


And this:
Usually, as thermals do not form over water, birds fly low above the water.
http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 6/20130419

"... Figure 2 shows that the average flying height was less than 50m above the water surface in all 31 species in our sample, and less than 10m in 16 of them. ... As most (observed) tracks were several hundred metres long, these low flying heights constrained the flight paths to be nearly horizontal, as assumed by the theory. ..."

Mean flying heights above the water surface for 31 species in our sample:
Image
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

chrisitz
Registered user
Posts: 123
Joined: May 24th, 2017, 10:20 am
Location: Austria, Salzburg

Post by chrisitz » October 10th, 2018, 3:35 pm

but if paike flew back to the Island shiza, we would see in the birdmap.....or? :unsure:

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 3533
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » October 10th, 2018, 3:41 pm

chrisitz wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 3:35 pm
but if paike flew back to the Island shiza, we would see in the birdmap.....or? :unsure:
I'm afraid that you are right, chrisitz.
I have checked the GSM coverage on the island Schiza.
Large parts of the island (and the other islands in that area) have GSM coverage, but some smaller parts of it have no coverage.

All this isn't very reassuring... I know.
Sorry.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

User avatar
sova
Registered user
Posts: 9703
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Post by sova » October 10th, 2018, 3:55 pm

Question;
How long did it take until the data of Elena, Kalle, Markus and Vova seemed to have crossed the Mediterranean?
Solo .... you know that for sure :whistling:

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 3:58 pm

Anne7 wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 3:31 pm
Sorry for my late reply, Solo Waiting for any news about Päike is unnerving, so I went away for a while. The only scientific info that I have about flight speed and height is this.(I posted it before.)
Anne , thank you - I read that your comment (posted before) at the time.

"... Figure 2 shows that the average flying height was less than 50m above the water surface in all 31 species in our sample, and less than 10m in 16 of them. ... "

that is reason why I have question to Liz - why is 218m not enough, what is the optimal high for flapping

User avatar
sova
Registered user
Posts: 9703
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Post by sova » October 10th, 2018, 4:03 pm

I do not know how the channels work exactly. It is interesting that Lonjas transmitter has reported itself above sea first. Only later in the country.
This means that Lonjas flight took more than 8 hours.
Does that help us something? ... I do not think ....
Image

Image

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 4:13 pm

sova wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 4:03 pm
... This means that Lonjas flight took more than 8 hours. ...
no - here https://www.svz.de/deutschland-welt/pan ... 58201.html they exactly wrote: "Nach sechsstündigem Nonstop-Flug erreicht sie in Libyen die afrikanische Küste." ...425 Kilometer über das Mittelmeer, ohne Rast und mit durchschnittlichen 70 km/h, da hat gewiss auch günstiger Wind geholfen." – Quelle: https://www.svz.de/12458201 ©2018
6h - 425km - 70km/h

EDIT: the time is not exactly on your pics - the interval for sending data is obviously 6h (also Urmas wrote that interval), she was earlier on this place

https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 80#p617680

kuhankeittäjä
Registered user
Posts: 63
Joined: July 31st, 2018, 6:14 am
Location: Finland

Post by kuhankeittäjä » October 10th, 2018, 4:27 pm

Hi Chrisiz and Anne7:

The last available data transmission seems to have happened 15 minutes to 11 UTC and the next would have happened after several hours (6?), if it took place. Between transmissions Päike could have flown far away, the data logger still collecting information. If Päike landed to a place with no GSM and stayed there the information would still be in the logger, not in Estonia.

The data sheet defines 15 seconds for GPS (navigation). Is this the length of a single measurement or gap between two measurements? The data on the image given by Urmas shows flight path corners approximately at every 10 minutes. So it would have been possible for Päike to fly back to an island (Schiza) from the last migration map corner at sea, assisted by tail wind, take a thermal lift there and start gliding towards the sea without leaving any sign of visit on this kind of map. Then the communication system would have sent the information which we see on the map by Urmas. The resampled birdmap gives corners at 30 minutes intervals and there is even more freedom for the birds paths to deviate from a straight line there.

If the migration swarm had taken a thermal lift up to 1500m the wind direction would have been different, towards island Crete, not back towards mainland. A wind of 15m/sec would have taken the BS to the SE. This could have taken place already during the next visit above solid ground. I think, there's still hope to have a data transmission from Päike, with all its details.

User avatar
sova
Registered user
Posts: 9703
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Post by sova » October 10th, 2018, 4:44 pm

Solo, thank you
kuhankeittäjä wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 4:27 pm
I think, there's still hope to have a data transmission from Päike, with all its details.
That would be great
Thank you for your explanation :2thumbsup:

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 5:00 pm

sova wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 3:55 pm
Question; How long did it take until the data of Elena, Kalle, Markus and Vova seemed to have crossed the Mediterranean? Solo .... you know that for sure :whistling:
I am not sure if all is exactly so (update in LK and date of new localisation):
Elena: 01.09. Greece - 09.09. Chad
Kalle: 14.09. Greece (on the way) - 16.09. Egypt
Vova: 21.09. Greece - 26.09 Niger
Markus: 27.09 Bulgaria - 28.09. Egypt

Image

User avatar
sova
Registered user
Posts: 9703
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Post by sova » October 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Solo wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 5:00 pm
I am not sure if all is exactly so (update in LK and date of new localisation):
Elena: 01.09. Greece - 09.09. Tchad - 8 days
Kalle: 14.09. Greece - 16.09. Egypt - 2 days
Vova: 21.09. Greece - 26.09 Niger - 5 days
Marksu: 27.09 Rumäien - 28.09. Egypt - we forget that
Solo ... you are a sweetheart! :2thumbsup: ... Thank you very much
That is, there is still Chanse we still *hear* something from Päike .

User avatar
Liz01
Registered user
Posts: 45258
Joined: January 21st, 2014, 2:06 pm
Location: Germany Berlin

Post by Liz01 » October 10th, 2018, 5:15 pm

Solo wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 3:58 pm
............

that is reason why I have question to Liz - why is 218m not enough, what is the optimal high for flapping
Solo, it was my own thoughts.

.... The white stork is one of the highest flying birds in the world and can reach altitudes of 4,800 meters (16,000 feet) while migrating. (I think, the black storks are able to do the same)

..As air thermals do not form over water, however, the storks would have to use energetic wing-flapping to use such a route, a technique that burns 23 times more body fat than soaring over land.
(that is very bad, if the stork hovers only a few hundred meters over the sea)

My logic tells me that if Päike did not go up in a good high, then her/his chances are very bad. That's all.
Another negative point is the slow flight.
Anne figured it out. Päike will not be able 34 hours with flapping wings flew over the sea. She/ he is a juvenile!

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 5:26 pm

Liz01 wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 5:15 pm
...Solo, it was my own thoughts. ..
Liz, thank you for your answer.
You are for me very, very good lay expert - I think, you read that about the high :puzzled:

Probably it will be better for us all still writing, if it is our (lay) opinion or (professional) knowledge (better also with source).

(your another information in that comment I already know :headroll: )

User avatar
Liz01
Registered user
Posts: 45258
Joined: January 21st, 2014, 2:06 pm
Location: Germany Berlin

Post by Liz01 » October 10th, 2018, 5:32 pm

Solo wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 5:26 pm
........
Probably it will be better for us all still writing, if it is our opinion or knowledge (better also with source).
Solo, I just checked this morning if there's any good news from our Päike. Thinking about this primal time is a big deal of luck for me. :mrgreen:

I did not think to write .. it's my own thought or to put any links in the forum. I had to hurry to get to work.

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 5:34 pm

sova wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm
Solo ... you are a sweetheart! :2thumbsup: ... Thank you very much That is, there is still Chanse we still *hear* something from Päike .
:blush:
(I was fast and not accurate - they are now correction in that my comment)

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 5:36 pm

Liz01 wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 5:32 pm
Solo, I just checked this morning if there's any good news from our Päike. Thinking about this primal time is a big deal of luck for me. :mrgreen: I did not think to write .. it's my own thought or to put any links in the forum. I had to hurry to get to work.
I know - without coffee, so early morning ... :mrgreen:

Treia
Registered user
Posts: 324
Joined: August 11th, 2018, 9:42 am
Location: Finland

Post by Treia » October 10th, 2018, 7:08 pm

:hi:
by kuhankeittäjä » October 10th, 2018, 1:09 pm
by kuhankeittäjä » October 10th, 2018, 4:27 pm
Thanks for the good explanations !!!
I tried to think slightly in the same way, but that was only a little thought,
because I do not understand any about those GSP and data transmissions.
by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 5:00 pm
Marksu: 27.09 Rumäien - 28.09. Egypt - we forget that
In my opinion, Osprey Markus was expected longer, but it is, of course,
only my own memory image, because I did not make any notes of it.
by baska » October 10th, 2018, 6:46 am
October 10
KARULA
WOW ! Karula is already flown further ! He is in Bulgaria now, near Burgas.
last data : 09.10.2018
distance : 2906 km ( + 422 km )
But after all, we have also good news for this day ... Karula's great flight to Bulgaria!

Solo
Registered user
Posts: 14590
Joined: October 19th, 2015, 7:18 pm

Post by Solo » October 10th, 2018, 7:46 pm

Treia wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 7:08 pm
..In my opinion, Osprey Markus was expected longer, but it is, of course, only my own memory image, because I did not make any notes of it.....
all infos we have in LK :mrgreen: :
update 26.09. - in the area (Bulgaria), last data 25.09., distance 2151km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 59#p616259
update 27.09. - on the way (Bulgaria), last data 26.09., distance 2318km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 74#p616374
update 28.09. - crossed the Mediterranean and reached the north of Libya, last data: 27.09., distance 3467 km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 18#p616518

Treia
Registered user
Posts: 324
Joined: August 11th, 2018, 9:42 am
Location: Finland

Post by Treia » October 10th, 2018, 8:37 pm

:hi:
Solo wrote:
October 10th, 2018, 7:46 pm

all infos we have in LK :mrgreen: :
update 26.09. - in the area (Bulgaria), last data 25.09., distance 2151km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 59#p616259
update 27.09. - on the way (Bulgaria), last data 26.09., distance 2318km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 74#p616374
update 28.09. - crossed the Mediterranean and reached the north of Libya, last data: 27.09., distance 3467 km - https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 18#p616518
Thanks Solo ! My memory-image about Osprey Markus seems to be really wrong,
maybe I remembered ospreys name incorrectly :whistling:

Post Reply

Return to “Migration Maps and News”