Following Karls' Families

Migration Maps, Tõnn, Greater Spotted Eagle and Black Storks
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Solo
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Re: Following Karl's Family

Post by Solo » November 23rd, 2018, 7:54 pm

kuhankeittäjä wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:40 pm
... This is exactly as you say. Maybe Raija tried to catch some other information which could be available, e.g. the GSM-towers with which Päike's Ornitrack communicated last? ...
http://www.ornitela.com/faq How does the data upload via GSM/GPRS network work?

"GPS positions and sensor information logged by OrniTrack transmitters are transferred using GPRS protocol via GSM (mobile phone) network. Therefore, data transmission is as good as is GSM/GPRS network coverage in the study area."

"Some areas have no GPRS coverage yet, but GSM network might be available. When only GSM network is present, OrniTrack transmitters cannot upload the collected data, but once per day they send SMS message with 12 GPS positions scattered evenly throughout the period since the last successful GPRS data upload or the last SMS message.
When transmitters fail to connect to GPRS, they store collected data in the internal memory and upload once network becomes available."

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Post by raija » November 23rd, 2018, 8:53 pm

kuhankeittäjä wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:40 pm
This is exactly as you say. Maybe Raija tried to catch some other information which could be available, e.g. the GSM-towers with which Päike's Ornitrack communicated last?
As a professional, Pazi, would you like to illustrate possibilities to know, what was the tower of the last transmission Oct 7 2018? And even more interesting, did Päike's telecommunication device shake hands with any other tower after that, before its next calculated transmission time? If yes, it could advice where Päike went next, if anywhere, and did its backpack system send any stop communication message to any tower.
The two-way arrow was my mistake (ajatuskatko suomeksi).
I try to make a simple drawing about data connections but it was first time a ever make a drawing, so there was some problems, as you can understand :laugh:

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Post by Jo UK » November 23rd, 2018, 9:34 pm

Rita wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:48 pm
Blimey sova, what do you need eight reserved spaces for postings for? Does it serve a purpose? :puzzled:

The only reason that I can think of is that you want to prevent that postings of other forum members 'disturb' the sequence of your postings.
Rita, yes, that is the reason thaat I suggested to sova that she should post that way.
Do you find it difficult?

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » November 23rd, 2018, 9:51 pm

Good evening, everyone! :wave:

Many thanks to all for today's updates, pictures and info. :thumbs:

On November 19, a birdwatcher counted 25 black storks at the fish ponds of Neve Ur. :thumbs: And 63 other bird species, on the same day. :laugh:
https://ebird.org/hotspot/L7936004?yr=cur&m=&rank=mrec

Image

TODAY'S SUMMARY

KARL (Karl arrived near Kadugli in Sudan on 13.10. If he is still there = 41 days)
No new data (Last data: 15.11.2018)

MARU (Maru is near the Nile in Egypt since 01.11; = 22 days)
Last data: 23.11.2018
Distance: 7072 km (+ 6 km in 1 day), same area (Kom Umbu, Egypt)
Weather report at 10:00
temp: 29°; 15:00 28°
Precipitation: 0 mm
Humidity: 20%
Air pressure: 1014 hPa
Wind 100 m - NW (15 km/h); 15:00 NW (27 km/h)
Wind 250 m - NW (16 km/h); 15:00 NW (30 km/h)
Wind 500 m - NW (12 km/h); 15:00 NW (33 km/h)

PÄIKE
No new data (Last data: 07.10.2018)

KARULA (Karula arrived on 19.11 in Gesher)
Last data: 23.11.2018
Distance: 5055 km (+ 6 km in 1 day), same area (Gesher/Neve Ur, Israel)
Weather report at 10:00
temp: 18°; 15:00 18°
Precipitation: 1.9 mm; 15:00 0.6 mm
Humidity: 90%
Air pressure: 1013 hPa
Wind 100 m - SW (05 km/h); 15:00 SW (00 km/h) ?
Wind 250 m - SW (01 km/h); 15:00 SW (00 km/h) ?
Wind 500 m - SW (09 km/h); 15:00 SW (11 km/h)

Good night.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

kuhankeittäjä
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Post by kuhankeittäjä » November 23rd, 2018, 10:21 pm

Solo wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 7:54 pm

When transmitters fail to connect to GPRS, they store collected data in the internal memory and upload once network becomes available."[/i]
OK! My point was, whether Ornitrack closes all connections to GSM/GPRS -network between transmission times (6 hours interval for Päike), or does it log in / shake hands to / with closest tower when the bird moves? If the latter, the operator has information, which towers were contacted and when it happened. If the former, Ornitela is flying blind except a short burst every 6 hours, even if there are towers nearby. So, the system operator may have information on the last tower, which may locate somewhere else than where the last transmission occurred. In 6 hours the bird can fly far away.

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Post by kuhankeittäjä » November 23rd, 2018, 10:26 pm

raija wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 8:53 pm
The two-way arrow was my mistake (ajatuskatko suomeksi).
I try to make a simple drawing about data connections but it was first time a ever make a drawing, so there was some problems, as you can understand :laugh:
So, you didn't mean to try to apply any forensic data communication studies to find a disappeared phone attached to an animal?

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Post by Michi » November 23rd, 2018, 10:27 pm

Good evening together, hello Anne! :wave:
Oh, I'm too late with my pics and data. :rolleyes: You've already done the summary.
But as I've taken pictures already, I'll post them.

MARU

Last data: 23.11.2018
Distance: 7072 km (+ 6 km in 1 day), same area (near Kom Ombo, Egypt)

Image

Image

Thank you for the summary and the interesting Hotspot Map of the Neve-Ur fish ponds! The number of Black Storks is clearly decreasing!
And thanks to all for the updates, reports and pictures, Solo, Hellem, Sova and all! :2thumbsup:

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Michi
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Post by Michi » November 23rd, 2018, 10:43 pm

KARULA

Last data: 23.11.2018
Distance: 5055 km (+ 6 km in 1 day), same area (near Neve Ur and Gesher, Israel)

Image

Rita wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:34 pm
Friday, 23rd November 2018, data of 23.10.2018
Rita :hi:, unfortunately the date is not right. :blush: Could you please change it?
Thank you!
And the positions of Maru and Karula in your last pictures are not correct. Maru's location in your picture is yesterday's.
I think it's better not to use the timeline. This often causes inaccuracies.
:wave:

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » November 23rd, 2018, 10:44 pm

Michi wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 10:27 pm
Good evening together, hello Anne! :wave:
Oh, I'm too late with my pics and data. :rolleyes: You've already done the summary.
But as I've already taken pictures, I'll post them.
Hello, Michi :wave:
Thank you very much for the pics!
No, you're not too late. :D
It isn't a problem that your images/updates appear after I wrote the summary, is it?
We just do it as it suits us best. :thumbs:
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Michi
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Post by Michi » November 23rd, 2018, 10:51 pm

Anne :D :thumbs:

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Michi
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Post by Michi » November 24th, 2018, 1:58 am

sova wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 6:13 pm
Image
Image
Hello Sova, :hi:
the whole time I wanted to ask what this map means. 98 % I don't understand. Luckily today it is in german. May I ask what means "Bogensek., Index 1, Index 2"? What do the numbers in these columns mean? And "Schlechte Schichten", "Bot"? The data below? I have no idea what this all could stand for. :puzzled:
Sorry that I' m asking only now, but mostly I don't have the time to deal with these things more intensively.

Good night everyone, sleep well! :wave:

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Post by Jo UK » November 24th, 2018, 2:52 am

Today, November 24th, is our 10th birthday!


https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 04#p622704

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Michi
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Post by Michi » November 24th, 2018, 3:34 am

My heartily congratulations to 10 years Looduskalender! :D :headroll:

This wonderful website and all the excellent and impressive webcams have become a part of my life. I got many new insights about the world of birds. I can't thank enough for that.

I hope I still manage to write in the birthday topic. Hopefully it is still open for a while. :)

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Liz01
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Post by Liz01 » November 24th, 2018, 7:12 am

Anne7 wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 6:16 pm
.............
Liz, if you write: "We do not know what the usual route is", I understand it exactly as you have written.
Usual means: "something that is practised by most, something that is encountered in the normal course of events."
Do we agree? .................
Anne, good morning :hi:
Sorry because I answer so late. I had a busy day yesterday :bow:

I spoke of what we consider ordinary or unusual. I do not mean the most used route.

For us something is unusual, if it does not meet our expectations.
We expect the storks to make their way over the Bosphorus. Most storks take this path, that is undisputed. There are counts, transmitter data and ring finds. So, I agree!

I write from the perspective of the storks!
I just wanted to say with my post that it is apparently not unusual for the storks to take other paths.

To put it in a nutshell! For the storks, the route they choose is not unusual. I hope it is more understandable now? Too bad that my English is not well-endowed for really important things.

And, of course, I also consider that the storks can unintentionally get off their original route. That happens in weather-related events
That meant with the "you're killing me" is something funny! That's a saying in Germany :laugh:


EDIT:
Some sources in recent literature (Janssen at al. 2004) mention the mediterranean rout as a real alternative of Black Stork migration. The phenomenon my be worth of investigations in the future, in order to find out more about the origin and the age distribution....
Image
....3.6.1.4 The Bosphorus, the Dardanelles and the Belen Pass (Turkey) Ring returns and telemetry studies have shown that most Eastern European Black Storks cross the Bosphorus Strait during the migration. Unfortunately there has been no continuous long term monitoring.

Historical data were only available from scare articles and notbooks of ornithologist tourists.
Solo wrote:
November 22nd, 2018, 9:27 pm
Anne,
my English is not good to explain my knowledge about this:bow: "most" - that is statistical definition of normal (usual), one of view on this term (what is usual, normal is often only question of consensus in much areas)
.........


Solo, :2thumbsup:


Thanks a lot to all for updates and interesting comments! :2thumbsup:

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Post by Abigyl » November 24th, 2018, 7:51 am

HAPPY 10th BIRTHDAY :loveshower:

NOVEMBER 24th - Good Morning!
Anne7 wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 9:51 pm

On November 19, a birdwatcher counted 25 black storks at the fish ponds of Neve Ur. :thumbs: And 63 other bird species, on the same day. :laugh:
This number of Black Storks is very interesting since it looks that this area is less important than the "Hagoshrim" etc., or Raivo's old territory with their many ponds and small rivers.
If we see here 25 BS, it means that many of them are spread all around, and choose to stay there and not continue to Africa. It'll be very interesting to see the numbers of Dec-Jan :puzzled:

ED: I found that on the same date, Nov 19th, a well rated birder, saw in Gesher 330 of them during 1 hour!! Amazing !!

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sova
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Post by sova » November 24th, 2018, 9:12 am

Michi wrote:
November 24th, 2018, 1:58 am
Hello Sova, :hi:
the whole time I wanted to ask what this map means. 98 % I don't understand. Luckily today it is in german. May I ask what means "Bogensek., Index 1, Index 2"? What do the numbers in these columns mean? And "Schlechte Schichten", "Bot"? The data below? I have no idea what this all could stand for. :puzzled:
Sorry that I' m asking only now, but mostly I don't have the time to deal with these things more intensively.

Good night everyone, sleep well! :wave:
good morning to all :hi:
Michi

Here is an explanation in English
https://content.meteoblue.com/en/content/view/full/1691
and here in German
https://content.meteoblue.com/de/content/view/full/1691

If you put together a lot of data, I think that this data might be of interest as well (certainly not for me, but for those who have a lot to do with this matter). Or what do you mean?

or all others .... Since you think I should not post anymore (astronomical seeing)?

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Post by Jo UK » November 24th, 2018, 11:51 am

I do hope thay sova will continue to post ALL of the information she has been able to give us. It seems that some members are not quite comfortable with the number of pictures needed for sova to give that information. On October 29th, I did say that we can think again if necessary about sova's weather posts.
Sova, I have an idea - PM coming a little later.

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » November 24th, 2018, 12:59 pm

Hello, everyone! :wave:

HAPPY 10th BIRTHDAY !
Liz01 wrote:
November 24th, 2018, 7:12 am
Anne, good morning :hi:
Sorry because I answer so late. I had a busy day yesterday ...
Hello, Liz, :hi:

Thank you for your reply.
I think we are discussing something that we fully agree on. :mrgreen:
The most common, normal route is through the Bosphorus. But we know that there are also alternate (less frequently used) routes. For a BS, who is taking an unusual route, it might nevertheless be his usual route. :nod:

I also agree that it is probable that some (especially inexperienced) BS may accidentally deviate from their route, for many reasons. The weather (wind) can probably be the cause in many cases. That is why I think it is useful that the weather data is given here. Provided that someone with sufficient time and knowledge will ever interpret these data, of course.

Here is an interesting study that shows that migrant birds, that breed in the same area in Europe, spread out across all of Africa during the northern winter. A new satellite-tracking study shows that the destination of individual birds is largely determined by the wind conditions they encounter during their first migration.

Wind blows young migrant birds to all corners of Africa.
https://phys.org/news/2017-05-young-mig ... .html#nRlv

Image


Another very interesting fact is the accepted theory that birds use genetic maps during migration.

Many young birds migrate successfully without help from older birds who have made the trip before. The implication is that migration instructions - perhaps even some sort of map of astronomical or geographical references - are somehow written upon the genes inherited from their parents. Just how maps can be coded into gene structure is anyone's guess. In fact, since the DNA in the genes seems to code only for protein synthesis, the locations and characters of inheritable maps are still not understood.

Nevertheless, several independent studies came to amazing conclusions.

For example this study:
The genetic make-up of a willow warbler determines where it will migrate when winter comes. Studies of willow warblers in Sweden, Finland and the Baltic States show that "migration genes" differ - depending on where the birds breed in the summer. The willow warblers that breed in southern Sweden migrate to West Africa, while those in northern Sweden, Finland and the Baltic States fly to southern or eastern Africa. A genetic comparison shows that the genomes are almost completely identical, but there are significant genetic differences between the birds that breed in southern Sweden and those that breed in the northern parts of the country and east of the Baltic.
These differences are restricted to two regions in the genome, where the comparison shows extensive differences in over 200 genes.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-07-birds-mig ... y.html#jCp

It becomes even more interesting if birds from the same species, but with different 'migration genes' interbreed. The 'hybrid' offspring inherit some mixed directional messages!*

For example, the Swainson’s thrush is split into two subgroups that migrate along very different routes. Every spring both subgroups return to Canada and— here’s the key — they sometimes interbreed.
The researchers found that the 'hybrid' offspring favoured a flyway that was in between those of the two subgroups! Since the hybrid thrushes couldn’t have learned that middle road, it seems that the birds were guided by a mixture of genetic instructions inherited from both parents.

Image

Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... iuc2rPB.99

* Mixed genes appear to drive hybrid birds to select more difficult routes than their parent species, according to new research from University of British Columbia zoologists. “Instead of taking well-trodden paths through fertile areas, these birds choose to scale mountains and cross deserts,” says UBC researcher Kira Delmore.
Mixed genes mix up the migrations of 'hybrid' birds!
https://news.ubc.ca/2014/07/22/mixed-ge ... rid-birds/
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by Jo UK » November 24th, 2018, 1:04 pm

Anne7 that is really very interesting. Thank you for finding this new (to us) information.

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » November 24th, 2018, 4:06 pm

Abigyl wrote:
November 24th, 2018, 7:51 am
This number of Black Storks is very interesting since it looks that this area is less important than the "Hagoshrim" etc., or Raivo's old territory with their many ponds and small rivers.
If we see here 25 BS, it means that many of them are spread all around, and choose to stay there and not continue to Africa. It'll be very interesting to see the numbers of Dec-Jan :puzzled:

ED: I found that on the same date, Nov 19th, a well rated birder, saw in Gesher 330 of them during 1 hour!! Amazing !!
Abigyl, thank you! :headroll:
Probably our little Karula was one of those 330 black storks! :thumbs:
He arrived in Gesher on Nov 19th.

I wonder if this birder also took photographs?! Maybe it might be useful to contact him! :D

If our Karula decides to spend the entire winter in Israel, I believe that would definitely increase his survival chances. But it is too early to assume that he will stay in Israel, I think.

https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 67#p621367
Proportion of different age groups during the winter period:
http://www.aves.be/fileadmin/Aves/Bulle ... -4_127.pdf

https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 73#p621373
Apparently, more and more migrating birds winter in Israel
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Migra ... ous-515319
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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