Black Stork Nest in Karula 2019

Cameras Watching over Black Storks nest
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Anne7
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Re: Black Stork Nest in Karula 2019

Post by Anne7 » June 20th, 2019, 9:24 pm

20:43:53 Is it just imagination, or do the storklets really look sad?

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“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
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asteria
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Post by asteria » June 20th, 2019, 9:30 pm

leonia wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 9:18 pm
I totally agree with you Jo! :thumbs:

And Asteria: there is no other place than this thread here.
Once again, it was not here. It was in one of youtube chats.

The storklets are not happy, that is for sure. :cry:

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Post by Solo » June 20th, 2019, 9:50 pm

visit wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 9:01 pm
What kind of other superstition is this ? ;)
youtube chat (the SP nick is asteria)

"Kristiina-​I understand this is some kind of spiritual thing?
Carmen Elisabet Juanita de costa Brava Cortez​let- us say, it is like "fingers crossed" but much stronger
Kristiina-​I see, its very sweet that you care for storklets and believe in these rituals, but forum has rules. Storklets will have estonian names and through voting only
Carmen Elisabet Juanita de costa Brava Cortez-​what would you like: to keep the rules or to made an exception but save the storklets from further troubles?
Carmen Elisabet Juanita de costa Brava Cortez​-*to make"

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Post by leonia » June 20th, 2019, 9:54 pm

The chicks are fed and there is peace now at the nest. They don't need nothing else now. They cannot count, therefore the missing sibling is not in their mind, only in our's.
:offtobed:

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Post by Michi » June 20th, 2019, 10:01 pm

asteria wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 9:30 pm
Once again, it was not here. It was in one of youtube chats.
There's a German saying: Die Musik spielt hier.
It means translated: The music is playing here, in this thread. Here is the forum for all matters concerning the storklets.
I don't think, a youtube chat has any importance for this forum.

Nevertheless I like the idea to give the storklets names very soon. Estonian names.
We don't know how long these babies are with us. Therefore I would appreciate a lot if we could call them by a name.
Forgive me, if it's inappropriate what I say. But I'm in greatest worries that the goshawk could come back. :unsure:

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Post by Summi » June 20th, 2019, 10:13 pm

The two storklets look somehow so little in the middle of the nest.

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Post by Ilona » June 20th, 2019, 10:16 pm

:cry:
So much tragedy it has been in the stork nest this year, hopes it will be fine for the two remaining. Did the third kid fell from the nest or took the other bird it?

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asteria
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Post by asteria » June 20th, 2019, 10:18 pm

It fell from the nest after one of the attacks.

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Post by Crissy » June 20th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Thank you everyone for messages, pictures, videos and thoughts :nod:

Anne what a beautiful and touching picture of our two brave storklets...I'd like to think they miss their buddy, even if its not true and only a conception evoked by human emotions.

I am still thinking of our dear third storklet, maybe we will receive some news on how this situation resolved today, good or bad.

:wave:

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Post by visit » June 20th, 2019, 10:30 pm

Oh, i see..., thank you, Solo :)
Well, Jo has described the process of names and i think this is a good way to handle.

btw, i don't need a name to build up a relation or to like an animal and i think it shouldn't be such emotional to hurry with names.
it is a personal conviction, whether you believe in the protection caused by giving names or not. asteria, if you feel better with, take the names in your heart with you – nobody can change it ;)
and we can wait until the point of time of bird banding.
leonia wrote:They cannot count, therefore the missing sibling is not in their mind, only in our's.
i know that birds cannot count (as far as we understand it and it is proofed), but i wouldn't make such an absolute statement, just because of not being sure, what they really feel and think.
some humans cannot count too but nevertheless are able to miss somebody.
may be they miss the sibling, may be not – i don't know.

:wave:

edit:
Chrissy wrote:Thank you everyone for messages, pictures, videos and thoughts
*subscribe :)

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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 » June 20th, 2019, 10:33 pm

leonia wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 9:54 pm
The chicks are fed and there is peace now at the nest. They don't need nothing else now. They cannot count, therefore the missing sibling is not in their mind, only in our's.
:offtobed:
:hi:
Sorry to ask, Leonia, but how can you be so sure about this? I have the feeling that people often tend to underestimate the ability to think and to feel in animals.

An example: I had two cats from the same litter, brother and sister. They did everything together, eating, sleeping and sometimes even hunting (trying to catch birds together wasn't easy :mrgreen: ). When, years later, the tomcat died, his sister was quite listless (say: depressed). However, she had food and care and there was peace in the house. Her mourning only passed when a new cat arrived, a few weeks later. She wasn't very fond of that new cat, but keeping an eye on the newcomer distracted her from her brother's absence. :D

Most likely birds think and feel very differently than people, if only because their brains are structurally very different and because they don't have words. But concluding that the storklets do not realise that one is missing on the nest seems a strange idea to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence
...
Many birds are also able to detect changes in the number of eggs in their nest and brood. Parasitic cuckoos are often known to remove one of the host eggs before laying their own.
...
Counting has been considered an ability that shows intelligence. Anecdotal evidence from the 1960s has suggested that crows may count up to 3. Researchers, however, need to be cautious and ensure that birds are not merely demonstrating the ability to subitize, or count a small number of items quickly. Some studies have suggested that crows may indeed have a true numerical ability. It has been shown that parrots can count up to 6, and crows can count up to 8.
...
Some studies have suggested that birds — separated from mammals by over 300 million years of independent evolution — have developed brains capable of primate-like consciousness through a process of convergent evolution. Although avian brains are structurally very different from the brains of cognitively-advanced mammals, each has the neural circuitry associated with higher-level consciousness, according to a 2006 analysis of the neuroanatomy of consciousness in birds and mammals. The study acknowledges that similar neural circuitry does not by itself prove consciousness, but notes its consistency with suggestive evidence from experiments on birds’ working and episodic memory, sense of object permanence, and theory of mind.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
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asteria
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Post by asteria » June 20th, 2019, 10:37 pm

They are not happy because they are scared and stressed with all the bad things happened today. If the parent came, they would be more calm.

If you remember Woodek and Malwin 16.06.17, they were also very stressed.

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Post by Michi » June 20th, 2019, 11:07 pm

leonia wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 9:54 pm
The chicks are fed and there is peace now at the nest. They don't need nothing else now. They cannot count, therefore the missing sibling is not in their mind, only in our's.
Maybe they cannot count, but I don't think counting is necessary to notice that a sibling is no longer there, - that one of three is missing. The storklets had known each other, each in its own individuality. For me it is unthinkable that the storklets don't realize that one is missing.

Thank you for the article, Anne. :wave: Maybe our storklets are not as clever as raven birds or parrots; these are really very special. But I completely agree not to underestimate the ability of animals to think and feel.
With cats I have had similar experiences, and from dogs it is also known that they can miss a family member a lot.

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Post by asondheim » June 20th, 2019, 11:13 pm

they can count and recent research with ravens indicate they can get depressed as well. we've watched a mallard hybrid here in a river, whose mate was killed a year ago; he's distraught and wanders, has no new mate, is quick to bully and anger; he was completely different beforehand. don't underestimate bird intelligence and emotional ability, please! :-)

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Post by HelenL44 » June 20th, 2019, 11:16 pm

Just thought I'd mention that I, too, watch the YouTube cam because I can't get any of the direct links from here. It does say "Urmas Lett Live" and there is a live chat moderated by Liznm. I believe that's how the name discussion must have started.

Before I found the forum after I'd been watching the cam for awhile two years ago I thought that the YouTube live chat was the only discussion about the nest. Then somehow I found the forum here. Perhaps others have thought that the YouTube chat is the only place to talk about black storks, also. But Liznm and others do put in a correction there about how voting happens in the forum.

I appreciate both discussions because I translate the live chat posts to English and find it interesting to read. But the forum is still the best because of the well-done photos and recounting of what the storks are doing all day long.

Thank you posters for how you presented the horror of yesterday. I was watching when the 3rd storklet fell and it was good to hear others' information and reactions. I did have to stop watching for several hours because I was afraid more would happen. I just hold my breath when I get the email that there are new posts, and pray they are safe.

I'm very curious about how Karl II and Kati perceive this. It doesn't seem to have changed any behaviors.
Helen S.

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Post by Michi » June 20th, 2019, 11:21 pm

The incident in the early morning has also clearly shown that the parents are not on a nearby tree at night. They leave the storklets completely alone even at night.

asteria wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 10:37 pm
They are not happy because they are scared and stressed with all the bad things happened today. If the parent came, they would be more calm.
I fully agree, asteria. All storklets have been badly attacked - for many hours. I'm sure the dangerous encounter has still an effect on the storklets, - at least for today.

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Post by Jo UK » June 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Another thought about names - when we open the new Names topic ( in 2 - 3 days or so) shall we try to keep to the "K" initial for names, or shall we branch out into a different part of the alphabet? IF so, which one?
It would be good to keep to the "K" motif - Karula, Kati, Karl, Karl II, etc.

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Post by Katerina » June 20th, 2019, 11:59 pm

Good evening everyone, even though he is today and not good at all
Ann, Liz and all the other dear friends of our kids.
Thank you for the materials today and earlier.
And of course, I will support those who believe that these kids and not only, they have both thinking and emotions, in some way similar to human ones.
In the video of the fall from the nest, I clearly saw how much brother (?) was in shock at what had happened. And in parallel, it was necessary to fend off attacks.
Only one photo from today, photobook does not allow to place in normal quality, unfortunately, which shows that our brave kids are now holding on to each other even more.

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Post by Anne7 » June 21st, 2019, 12:25 am

Jo UK wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm
Another thought about names - when we open the new Names topic ( in 2 - 3 days or so) shall we try to keep to the "K" initial for names, or shall we branch out into a different part of the alphabet? IF so, which one?
It would be good to keep to the "K" motif - Karula, Kati, Karl, Karl II, etc.
Jo :wave:
I like the idea to keep to the "K" motif. :nod:
(But it would not be a problem for me if it were decided otherwise either.)
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

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Post by Michi » June 21st, 2019, 12:37 am

Jo UK wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 11:58 pm
Another thought about names - when we open the new Names topic ( in 2 - 3 days or so) shall we try to keep to the "K" initial for names, or shall we branch out into a different part of the alphabet? IF so, which one?
It would be good to keep to the "K" motif - Karula, Kati, Karl, Karl II, etc.
Jo, I'm pleased that a New Names topic will come soon. It would be very nice to keep the "K-motif". This nest has a bond to "K", - as you said. Also in memory of our beloved Karl.

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