Following Karls' Families

[Ari19]

Ari, it may take until May next year. On page 1 of this topic see Juta's post about the DNA results of the 2018 chicks.

Ah, I see. Thank you for pointing the date out to me, Jo and Solo!
(Wow! Such a long time. The labs take so much time to process the info?)

[Biker]

I think, that if our storklets finally decide to fly further and will be in problematic areas, we should consider to public tracker maps with some delays not to give so exact places?

please, let us do it that way - without discuss - it does not harm any of us, to know the exact whereabouts later.

[Ari19]

I agree with the suggestion to keep the problematic locations secret.
Everyone on this forum has the storklet's best interests in mind.

Perhaps, the mods can simply give us approximate coordinates when the storklets enter
dangerous areas? For example, the mods don't post a tracker map, instead they write a summary:
Oru or Aru has arrived in such and such region, travelled big or small distance, so many kilometers, behavior is regular, etc.

[sova]

28. Sept.

good morning to all

I agree with the suggestion to keep the problematic locations secret.
Everyone on this forum has the storklet's best interests in mind.
...

Which spot are problematic and which are not?
The whole * journey * is a problem for the bird ... what about poachers? Trophy Collector?
I just do not understand one thing, why did the idea come now. We show the routes for a year already?
And yes, the well-being of our bird is very important to me, otherwise I would not be in this forum every day

please, let us do it that way - without discuss - it does not harm any of us, to know the exact whereabouts later.

No Biker, I do not want to discuss, I just want to understand it..... why now, after a year

[juta]

Sova, a year ago we didn´t have tracker maps yet.
We can´t save "our" birds from all dangers but why not avoid another danger by giving exact coordinates. We can easily delete some last points, that´s all.

[Biker]

i know, sova

i do not want to embarrass anyone of you in any way.

[Liz01]

To this topic. I was very surprised when the first tracker maps were available.

This is my opinion.
The data are too accurate. They should not be found here. Not even a few days later. The birds use the same areas over and over again.
The ornithologists, Urmas and others, have the data. He provides us with the data. So they do not need them from us. It is the other way round.
For me it is sufficient to follow the birds via Birdmap. (as with all other birds too)
This exact data makes sense if we miss a bird. But that only makes sense to us personally. Urmas will certainly tell us what happened to the bird, if one of the them disappears from the Birdmap.

[Jo UK]

Thank you for your opinion, Liz.
So, will you ask Urmas to remove tracker maps from the forum? It was he who wanted it here.

[sova]

Thanks for the answers. (Juta, Biker, Liz, Jo)

[Liz01]

Thank you for your opinion, Liz.
So, will you ask Urmas to remove tracker maps from the forum? It was he who wanted it here.

Jo, It's just my opinion. The risk assessed Urmas, not me!

Not all have good intentions when they go to nests or follow the migration route.
I'm also worried when I see on Facebook pictures from the black storks. Pictures of lay people who are very close to the storks, only for good pictures. And that also during the breeding season. You only get pictures of the nest with chicks if you go very close to the nest.

[Jo UK]

Liz, we all share your very real concerns. Life is dangerous for our birds, whether we show tracker maps or not. Yes, Urmas will have assessed the risks before he gave us the ability to use these maps. There are many people in other countries, not on this forum, who make use of the information here for their research. It is easy to forget their existence because we have no contact with them, but they are an important part of our activity.

[Jo UK]

Ah, I see. Thank you for pointing the date out to me, Jo and Solo!
(Wow! Such a long time. The labs take so much time to process the info?)

As this work is done by volunteers, we have to wait for their convenience. How much does a DNA test cost? Thank heavens for vounteers

Edit - in UK the cost seems to be around £60 to £80.
or £100 for a paternity test!

[asteria]

Sometimes the gender of a storklet is clear without any tests. Oru and Aru must be both girls I think.

[Ari19]

As this work is done by volunteers, we have to wait for their convenience. How much does a DNA test cost? Thank heavens for vounteers

Edit - in UK the cost seems to be around £60 to £80.
or £100 for a paternity test!

Thank you for the detailed explanation Jo!

To this topic. I was very surprised when the first tracker maps were available.

This is my opinion.
The data are too accurate. They should not be found here. Not even a few days later. The birds use the same areas over and over again.
The ornithologists, Urmas and others, have the data. He provides us with the data. So they do not need them from us. It is the other way round.
For me it is sufficient to follow the birds via Birdmap. (as with all other birds too)
This exact data makes sense if we miss a bird. But that only makes sense to us personally. Urmas will certainly tell us what happened to the bird, if one of the them disappears from the Birdmap.

I can see what you mean Liz. My initial thought was concerning problems similar to the fate of Karl I.
War zones, electronics poaching, etc.

On the other hand, the tracker maps might be providing ornithologists important information concerning the life patterns of the birds. In a sense, "our birds" are part of an experiment. Their routes reveal much previously unknown info about the habits, life processes, and needs of the birds.

Is it a danger to the birds themselves? To a certain degree, yes. But the benefit is great too.
It helps the entire species. Plus, a bird's life is inherently dangerous, even without a tracker.

[Ari19]

Sometimes the gender of a storklet is clear without any tests. Oru and Aru must be both girls I think.

One of them is certainly a male. If I had to guess it would be Oru.

[Anne7]

Hello, everyone

I thought carefully about the potential danger of publishing tracker maps (and therefore also the last known coordinates of our birds).
At first glance, I also thought: "This is indeed too dangerous!"

On closer examination, however, I think that in reality, the danger is rather limited.
1. The tracker map information is never "real-time" information.
2. Our birds are no 'static objects'. (Nests are!)
At night, BS move less, but who will look for them in the dark? Moreover, how likely is it that they will be found at night, somewhere in, for example, a forest?
3. On a map, it looks extremely easy to locate a bird. In practice, however, I think this could be very difficult because of the vegetation, the relief, the terrain and the probable movements of a shy bird.
4. Poachers are most probably not going to look at a forum, jump in their cars and then drive a long way to try to find that one bird. They know that this will almost certainly not work. Moreover, poachers prefer to 'hunt' on well-known terrain, I think.

Furthermore, I think it is important to realise that the location points on birdmap are just as accurate as the location points on tracker map. The only difference is that a tracker map displays more (in-between) location points.
If we do not want the stopover areas and flyways of migrating birds made public, worldwide all maps must remain secret. And all information and studies on migration routes, stopover places and wintering areas must be deleted from the internet. Which of course is impossible.

I agree that our birds are exposed to many dangers during their migration. But I honestly don't think the dangers lie in the tracker maps. I think the most important dangers are: electrocution, collision with overhead power lines, degradation or loss of suitable stopover places and/or wintering habitats, predators, starvation, severe storms, people who line up along the busiest flyways and shoot at everything that flies by (for 'fun'!), local poachers...

[Kertugal]

Hello to all and especially thank you for all your information that reads it avidly every day.
I think that the problem of our storks is the same for all known wild animal species and that raconniers, collectors and others know perfectly the places frequented by animals for nesting, overwintering, or resting during migration for centuries and centuries and when they are present. They don’t need cards to get the information. On the other hand, keeping the places where the nests are is necessary to avoid the capture of chicks. That’s just my opinion, but I wanted to share it.
Thanks again for all your work and thanks to Urmas for sharing all this with us. Good day

[juta]

KARULA


Tracker map 27.09 - 28.09.2019

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vh6aQ ... sp=sharing

[sova]

....
or £100 for a paternity test!

then Karl II should pay, alone ... it's his chicks

[Anne7]

Hello to all and especially thank you for all your information that reads it avidly every day.
I think that the problem of our storks is the same for all known wild animal species and that raconniers, collectors and others know perfectly the places frequented by animals for nesting, overwintering, or resting during migration for centuries and centuries and when they are present. They don’t need cards to get the information. On the other hand, keeping the places where the nests are is necessary to avoid the capture of chicks. That’s just my opinion, but I wanted to share it.
Thanks again for all your work and thanks to Urmas for sharing all this with us. Good day

Hello, Kertugal.
I agree. Poachers and 'collectors' or 'trophy hunters' do (most probably) not need/use the information given by a tracker map.
And yes, the location of the nest in Estonia is carefully kept secret.