How do you say - - ?

[juhuau]

hah, A little hint from Jo and I' d found this thread. Seems to be the correct thread for a question I don't dare to ask in the ospray forums :-)

I am not shure that I can express the question correct and so I hope for assistance of members which are able to understand more english and also german.

In german there are two words: "Raubvogel" and "Greifvogel".

In the dictionarys I know, both are translated with "raptor" or "Bird of prey"

Now, "raptor" and "Bird of prey" means the same?
Both words I had seen used here in the forum. Raptor more often.

In german "Raubvogel" means "bird who is robbing" sth., steals sth.
"Greifvogel" means a bird which ist grabbing, catching sth.

So "Raubvogel" is a little "political incorrect" in my (german) feeling, because no bird can robb anyone or anything and it does neither steal. It is a word that criminalize the Birds.
"Greifvogel" is a not dooming word, it tries to describe the behavior of this Birds.

Exists this difference also in the English language?

In german I try to avoid the word "Raubvogel", so I like also in english to avoid the expression when the difference exists.

An now, may be, some german-speakers will understand, what I want so ask and will help to translate my question or answer to it

[Bea]

Hello juhuau

I think I understand what you mean (I am German with long-time-ago school-English!) - but in the quintessence there is no difference - apart from a scientific difference (see Wikipedia below).

A "Raubvogel" is hunting and eating the same way and the same food as a "Greifvogel".
No matter if you are translating it with "robbing" or "grabbing" - they are all not eating noisette-pralines

That is what Wikipedia says about both:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greifv%C3%B6gel

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raubv%C3%B6gel

[Jo UK]

I see the point of Juhuau's question. One word does ascribe "criminal" behaviour to a bird . Humans commit crimes and birds just display natural behaviour (but seeing the ravens at the winter feeding ground, I could change my mind about that!)

I don't rcall an English word that equates to Raubvogel.
I have to leave it to the German speakers to decide how to resolve this.
but I love ravens.

[Bea]

"Greifvogel" seems to be the more "modern" circumscription for them - and I am preferring "Bird of prey", too.

"Raptor" remembers me somehow to Dinosaurs-age and "Predator" to Arnold Schwarzenegger ....

Ravens!!!
At the moment here is a raven around the gardens and houses and plundering the song birds nests!!!

[juhuau]

Yes Bea, I know the Definitions of the words in german language and I also know the difference in the "feeling".

Jo has it described correct, better than I could: "One word does ascribe "criminal" behaviour to a bird".

That this differnence exists in german language is clear to me. And nobody want's to assert that Ospreys loves chocolate more than real living fresh fishes :-)
BTW: I, for me, like chocolate more than fish

(for german-Speakers: Its like the difference between "Unkraut" and "Wildkraut", also only a "wording", this time for unliked plants in the garden)

My aim was to get to know whether this difference in wording also exist in the english language. And whether "raptor" and "Bird of prey" perharps is regarding this.

When not, then I will use "raptor" without any scruple, although the word remembers me to the unliked "Raubvogel", the "criminal Bird" ;-)

[Bea]

I think both words are "correct".
Maybe Felis silvestris has one more idea about this all tomorrow.

And nobody want's to assert that Ospreys loves chocolate more than real living fresh fishes :-)
BTW: I, for me, like chocolate more than fish

Me too! I also like fish, but he has to be through the pan! But I like Sushi, also ;)

Funny - the difference between "Unkraut" and "Wildkraut" .... for me "Wildkraut" can be eaten by humans, but no "Unkraut" can be eaten. Probably some difference only exists in my mind

[alice44]

I do not know if bird of prey and raptor really translate perfectly to those German words. But for me, raptor is the better and more scientific word. Bird of prey is a more emotional negative term. But I also think bird of prey is becoming more common and thus has less of the negative connotation.


juhuau, it seems that for me at least the English terms have the opposite connotation from the German, except maybe there is a little of the grandeur of the dinosaur in the term raptor. (I think there must be a dinosaur with that as part of its name.)

[Raziel]

Funny... I never heard the word "raptor" being used about anything else than the dinosaur i Jurassic Parc, before I came to this forum ;) I have always used the term "birds of prey" in english.

In danish we say "rovfugl" which is like the german "Raubvogel". Meaning that the bird robs something. We also says "rovdyr" about animals who eat other animals. Tranlated to english it's predator. Directly translated "rov" means "robbing" and "dyr" means "animals".

[juhuau]

Hi again an thanks for your thoughts

Yes there ist the well-known Velociraptor, a dinosaur, for example.

And I also had read that in some classifications of palaeo-ontology all Birds belong to the dinosaurs. There (all) the birds are the living last dinosaurs or there direct offsprings.

in zoological classifications exists the word "Greifvogel" in german listings. In some lists "Greifvögel" and owls are the "Raubvögel". In other lists "Raubvogel" does not exists as a "group". This lists are not consistent, and they change by time? In some List the Falcons belong to the "Greifvögel" in other lists they are separeted.

I am not a ornithologist, so I am interested in the common use of the englisch words :-)

Raziel, in german we also know "rovdyr" as "Raubtier". And I don't know any less "criminal" word for that :-)

A little OT because of "Unkraut/and Wildkraut" to Bea. You may be right. There was a try in Germany to substitute the "bad" word "Unkraut" by "wildkraut". But this failed, because "Wildkraut" means to many people: plants not planted by humans but eatable for them. So I had read now in some articels in the net.

[Felis silvestris]

I think both words are "correct".
Maybe Felis silvestris has one more idea about this all tomorrow.

Interesting question. But I am neither an ornithologist or biologist, nor a linguist. I'm good at research.

I have asked Wikipedia nevertheless, and found, that "Raubvogel" and "Greifvogel" have got to do with the classification system of birds. I have looked into this a little when I sorted photos I made according to that. Since then I know where to search for a certain birds species in the system.
"Raubvogel" is, according to Wikipedia, no longer in use, historically R. comprised Falconiformes (Falkenartige - "falcon-like"), Accipitriformes (Greifvögel!! - "bird of prey") and Strigiformes (owls).
Some guy called Max Fürbringer worked on that and found out some new things. Wiki writes, since then term Raubvogel is void. First they have been renamed "Greifvögel". Classifications have been changed a few times, but today in the new systematics Raubvögel have been divided in "Falkenartige" (Falconiformes), Greifvögel (Accipitriformes) und Eulen (Strigiformes).

Even more interesting was a look into English Wikipedia.
Raptor - Raziel wrote it, basically we all must have seen Jurassic Park and those nice little beasts - the velociraptors.
Wiki writes:

The term "raptor" is derived from the Latin word rapere (meaning to seize or take by force) and may refer informally to all birds of prey, or specifically to the diurnal group.

My guess as a non-linguist, the German word "Raub" in Raubvogel, is derived from the same source. Some words have changed a bit more over times.
Wikipedia has no proper article for "Raptor" alone, it leads on to "Bird of Prey".
Quote Wiki:

Taken literally, the term "bird of prey" has a wide meaning that includes many birds that hunt and feed on animals and also birds that eat very small insects. In ornithology, and the definition used here, the term has a narrower meaning for birds that have very good eyesight for finding food, strong feet for holding food, and a strong curved beak for tearing flesh. Most birds of prey also have strong curved talons for catching or killing prey. Birds of prey generally prey on vertebrates, which are usually quite large relative to the size of the bird.

I think that shed a light on the scientific use. But in common speech such things never play a big role, people know a goshawk flying as "Raubvogel" and go for "Greifvogelshow" to see eagles and owls flying.
I personally had never any misgivings about the "Raub" in the bird, but knowing it's an obsolete term, maybe not use it again. In English both terms are in scientific use, just think of Global Raptor Information Network and others.

Unkraut - Wildkraut - Unkraut is a plant ("Kraut") which is not wanted - "unerwünscht" in German. Wildkraut are all wild growing plants that are edible without being changed by breeding and are indigenous. (definition also found in Wikipedia)

[juhuau]

thanks to felis for this interesting compilation

an here one more wiki-page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosur
there you will find:

"The fossil record indicates that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic Period and, consequently, they are considered a subgroup of dinosaurs by many paleontologists."

And "The common House Sparrow (Passer domesticus) is often used to represent modern birds in definitions of the group Dinosauria"

So many definitions

[Liis]

How does Google translate say ...?

If you are feeling kind, you can not have a phone at home, and shoot anyone trying to fix.
It is about orchids, Estonian to English, the Estonian original said
Kui liiki ei tunne, saab telefoniga pea igaüks pildistada ning kodus proovida määrata
meaning
If you do not recognize the species then nearly everybody can photograph it [the orchid] with the mobile, and try to identify it at home

Other things:
what would you call a (rather informal) ??? of flowers to give to someone or for a vase: bunch? bouquet? posy ?
and a garland of flowers to set on a birthday child's head, or your own, if you feel like it:
Wreath? garland? chaplet?

[Felis silvestris]

Google translator is good for a laugh time and again. The other day we've had a "worker's car" (Arbeitnehmerauto) in the black stork nest (in both, English and German translation from Estonian)! But this is also a classic!

[macdoum]

How does Google translate say ...?

If you are feeling kind, you can not have a phone at home, and shoot anyone trying to fix.
It is about orchids, Estonian to English, the Estonian original said
Kui liiki ei tunne, saab telefoniga pea igaüks pildistada ning kodus proovida määrata
meaning
If you do not recognize the species then nearly everybody can photograph it [the orchid] with the mobile, and try to identify it at home

Other things:
what would you call a (rather informal) ??? of flowers to give to someone or for a vase: bunch? bouquet? posy ?
and a garland of flowers to set on a birthday child's head, or your own, if you feel like it:
Wreath? garland? chaplet?

Liis
To offer flowers,in England one would say a bunch of flowers,or an arrangement.
In France its always a bouquet.
A posy is now 'old-fashioned,no longer used,exept maybe in poetry.
A wreath I would associate with funerals.
For the head of the bridesmaid...a garland ?
and Jo,what would you say ?

[Liis]

About wreaths - yes, thank you, what I thought, funerals.
Only I thought it might be personal, from having been exposed to too many detective stories at a too tender age (the old days of detective stories that is - or Midsomer murders - when they had proper burials)
There is a Nordic custom however of getting a garland of flowers on your head on occasions (festive) even without being a bride. Kids do it with dandelion chains. Jubilee birthday people might get a more elaborate one. There are impromptu occasions.

Bunch, bouquet - still the problem with a rather nice but not elaborate collection - NOT bunched in sweet little sweaty hands for mum, but not really florist-type arrangement. An everyday ??? of flowers that you might pick for yourself on a walk along a country path. For instance.

As said, both probably Nordic traditions from when wild flowers were and are free for the picking. Although in these days the picking is ever more often done in florist's shops. I rather enjoyed a Midsommarstång (Swedish tradition, Maypole hung with garlands for Midsummer) garnished with Chrysanthemums ...

Different cultures, different ecologies / environments, different vocabularies!

[Jo UK]

Informal collection of flowers - a bunch of flowers. I think posies are too "last century" or earlier!

Bouquet is a French word and suggests a formal arrangement made by a florist for a special occasion.
We have so many French words, so maybe it can also be said to be English, if Macdoum will allow it
On the head or round the neck- probably a garland.

A wreath is definitely for a funeral - but then there are Christmas wreaths. I am not sure how to think about that

[Liis]

Today's Google Translate, for improved understanding between nations ...

Strong hind legs brown boiler, boiler or yellow hallikasrohelistel sihktiivalistel the body length of up to customs -
Estonian original: Tugevate tagajalgadega pruunikatel, kollakatel või hallikasrohelistel sihktiivalistel võib kehapikkust olla kuni toll
Translation, in the chirping grasshoppers
The Ortopthera insects, with strong hind legs and brownish, yellowish or greyish-green colours, can be up to an inch long.

How come the boilers? Well, the declension of e g pruunikas, brownish, in plural here is pruunikatel, with, quite correctly, katel on its own = boiler.

[Liis]

Google translate, for Estonian, has really gone lunatic.
I haven't followed the discussion in the GT forum. Does anyone know anything?

It seems as if some new programme or routine has been adopted since, at a guess, a month.

I don't use GT for understanding an Estonian text, or translating seriously. It has never managed Estonian even reasonably. But I do check it for occasional better word choices or bits of phrases, when I have the time.

It has had 3 rather distinct eras, to me:
the start when Estonian was included in the languages translated: mostly crazy, but did improve with time, a little; there was some logic in the madness.
Phase 2, implemented some 5 ? years ago: no improvement for Estonian, did not seem to "learn" with time.
Phase 3, now: lunatic, back to pre-phase 1. Completely wrong single word translations abound; sentences, grammar and content wholly helter-skelter, no subject context

[Kukelke]

My guess as a non-linguist, the German word "Raub" in Raubvogel, is derived from the same source. Some words have changed a bit more over times.

As a linguist I can confirm that you are right. The 'p' at the end of wordstems in Latin almost always corresponds to 'v', 'f' or 'b' in the Germanic languages as both Latin and the germanic languages have the same common ancestor called Indoeuropean; thus the Latin wordstem "rap-" (from "rapere") becomes in the germanic languages "roof-" (Dutch), "raub-" (German), "reave-" (English), "rov-" (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish)

English "to rob" is a loan from Old-French "robere" which again is derived from the above mentioned Latin "rapere", and all forms go back to Indoeuropean "*reup"/"*reub" which means "to snatch". (an * before a word means among linguists that it is a reconstructed form from which no records exist)- Also the related English words "rave", "rip" and "rove(r)" go back to the same Indoeuropean word.

Having said that, it is exactly what raptors do: they snatch their prey.

raptor (n.)
c.1600, "ravisher, abductor," from Latin raptor "a robber, plunderer, abductor, ravisher," agent noun from past participle stem of rapere "to seize" (see rapid). Ornithological use is from 1873 (1823 in Latin plural Raptores).

http://etymonline.com/?search=raptor

Conclusion: the "raub-" in German "Raubvogel" hasn't so much with stealing to do, but it describes the act of snatching something. The meaning "to steal" is a later, secondary one.

[Luz4711]

Conclusion: the "raub-" in German "Raubvogel" hasn't so much with stealing to do, but it describes the act of snatching something. The meaning "to steal" is a later, secondary one.

May I say some?
Stealing - to take something and the one you take it from does not notice it while you are doing it.
Raub (robbery) - to take something from somebody mostly with physical violence (Strassenraub for example - sometimes with murdering = Raubmord) - and the one you take it from does notice it.
That's why we call them Raubvögel which does not count for Magpies, they steal. Therefore "Diebische Elster".
The difference between the two crimes also important for insurance matters and the years you are going to jail getting caught doing this or the other.

Edit: Greifvogel - greifen = to grab. In this case they grab it with their talon. To the "Greifvögel" also belong some Vultures which are not really all really "Raubvögel" because they do not kill their prey themselves.