Animals in Art & Literature

[Urmas]

A person you talk about, should be Mall Hiiemäe, well known folklorist in Estonia.
Btw. about Estonian folklore there is an journal in English:
http://haldjas.folklore.ee/folklore/

Mall Hiiemäe is from NW Estonia, where spent her childhood surrounded with wide forests and bogs in a foresters family, being familiar from young age with hunting, birdwatching, wildlife... Also not far from their home was nesting a Golden Eagle pair and Mall together with her sister (she was afterwards head forester in that district for tens of years) made observations about that eagle pair nesting success, behavior, etc. Surely Mall knows a lot about Black Storks as well...

Urmas

[Liis]

A person you talk about, should be Mall Hiiemäe, well known folklorist in Estonia.

Mall Hiiemäe it is
Of course
Kotkaklubi/Urmas, thanks! Deep, abject, sincere apologies to all for starting the name mistake!

[yarko]

A person you talk about, should be Mall Hiiemäe, well known folklorist in Estonia.
Btw. about Estonian folklore there is an journal in English:
http://haldjas.folklore.ee/folklore/

Mall Hiiemäe is from NW Estonia, where spent her childhood surrounded with wide forests and bogs in a foresters family, being familiar from young age with hunting, birdwatching, wildlife... Also not far from their home was nesting a Golden Eagle pair and Mall together with her sister (she was afterwards head forester in that district for tens of years) made observations about that eagle pair nesting success, behavior, etc. Surely Mall knows a lot about Black Storks as well...

Urmas

Hello Urmas, can you help me getting in contact with Mall Hiiemäe - we could make an interwiew with her about Black Storks and Myths - for the beginning of nesting season.
BTW our next interwiew (in the end of February) will be with Kotkaklubi:)

[Liis]

Why is the fox Лиса Патрикеевна, Lisa (or Lisabeta) Patrike'evna, Patriks daughter (?) in Russian?
Lisabeta I can understand, from fox = лиса. But who was Patrik, what is the story?
PS. He is Mickel Räv in Swedish ... Michael the Fox

[unp]

That's a grand question! How did you come by it? I never gave it a thought. Seems there is no definite answer but one of the theories might take us back to the 14th century and Gediminas' grandson Patrikey (derived, like Patrick, from Latin Patricius) who was expelled from Novgorod, presumably, for encouraging river pirates (a treacherous thing to do). Besides, numerous sites explaining meanings of names say (I don't know for what reason) that a person with that name is supposed to be cunning and deceitful.

[Liis]

That's a grand question! How did you come by it? I never gave it a thought.

Simple. I translate, as best I can. Sometimes - often - I get stuck. So it was with that thieving fox headline. At worst I look at the Russian version, Google Translator might be kind and come up with something useful. (It didn't, in this case). I don't know Russian, so I am not used to the vagaries of that - as all - languages: Patrikeevna?!? (Reinuvader Rebane and Mickel Räv are perfectly sensible, of course, no problems)

Seems there is no definite answer but one of the theories might take us back to the 14th century and Gediminas' grandson Patrikey (derived, like Patrick, from Latin Patricius) who was expelled from Novgorod, presumably, for encouraging river pirates (a treacherous thing to do).

That Patrikey? Aleksandrovich? Ancestor of Prince William of England?! - No, I am cheating, knew nothing of Gediminas of Lithuania until now, but completely fascinated. What a family!

Besides, numerous sites explaining meanings of names say (I don't know for what reason) that a person with that name is supposed to be cunning and deceitful.

What do the Irish say to that?
Please, can you find out more - about Patrikey & fox; not knowing Russian it is difficult.
I only found the Folktales book earlier - which says that fox is often 'Patrik's daughter' but not why.
As said somewhere - going from Schlafmütze to Bikini via Tartu & California poppy - you never know where you end up with LK.

[Liis]

Curious that the fox is always seen as sly, the wolf as evil, and the bear as strong, honest and maybe a little stupid. For myself I would be less afraid of a wolf than a bear in the forest.
Gediminas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gediminas, grandfather (EDIT: or greatgrandfather - thank you, UNP) to the Patrikey, who was a possible explanation to the fox being called Patrik's daughter, lived about 1275-1341, and was ruler of Lithuania, then a great power in eastern Europe.
On one Internet site Patrikey is among ancestors 19 generations back to Prince William of England

[unp]

I tried to find out more about why the fox has such a patronymic and about Gediminids in Novgorod... lots of websites made by the copy/paste technique.

One trend is that the origin of this patronymic cannot be traced. Vladimir Dahl wrote in 1862 that relating sayings, such as Lisa Patrikeevna, to the Lithuanian duke Patrikey ... would be an 'ungrounded arbitrary act'. Recently, the State Darwin Museum wrote that the reason why this patronymic had been given to the fox was 'hidden in the fairytale past'. That's about all as concerns more or less academic opinions.

The second trend is represented by a multitude of sites by/for kindergarten/preschool educators and primary school teachers that say - Patrikeevna is associated with a Novgorod's Lithuanian governor Patrikey who lived six (as some say) or seven (as others insist) centuries ago. I guess in a couple of decades there will be many people around convinced that Patrikey gave his name to the fox. Seems to be a case of false etymology.

[ETA: I'll try to explain why I think so. Advocates of this theory provide quotations from chronicles to prove that Patrikey who governed Novgorod was cunning and resourceful and therefore gave his name to the fox. What they do prove in fact is only that Patrikey really governed Novgorod and was really cunning and resourceful.

Discussing this with Wife, I said, 'The name Patrikey must have come here and might have become associated with the fox long before the 14th century. I wonder why.' She answered, 'Maybe because Patrikey and cunning (хитрый - khitry) sound alike.' That was it.

Often, sayings are rhymed in languages, say vesna-krasna, Patrikey sam tretey in Russian (only Dahl mentions this saying that means, according to him, bad fellowship, bad help), etc., so why not khitry (cunning) Patrikey (assonance/consonance). Especially so in Russian that regards vers libre (free verse) as something slightly exotic. Therefore, consonance/rhyming may be behind why Patrikey is thought to be cunning and to have been the father of the fox.]

Confusion is added by the fact that there seem to have been two Patrikeys. One is Gediminas' grandson, a son of Narimantas (Gediminas' son) baptized Gleb, therefore known as Patrikey Narimantovich or Glebovich. The other is Gediminas' great grandson, a son of Narimantas' son Aleksandr, known as Patrikey Aleksandrovich. In some cases stories I read started with Patrikey Narimantovich/Glebovich and switched to Patrikey Aleksandrovich somewhere in the middle of narration. Some sites mention them as one person (http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f331462.htm). Some sites mention only Aleksandrovich (http://www.roskildehistorie.dk/stamtavl ... thauen.htm). Some sites recognize the existence of both. In any case, a person named Patrikey is said to have been the governor in Novgorod in 1382-1388 and since 1397 before moving in 1408 to Moscow.

Sorry, not very conclusive information. [ETA: Though now I hope your question's been answered in a way.]

[Liis]

This is moved from the Picnic grounds - the follow-up to the discussion in Pig Cam after the wolf howls and 'Wild hunt' viewtopic.php?p=18901#p18901
The trouble and problem with the Wild hunt or Odin's hunts in Scandinavia is that it has been equipped with quite a few extra features, glossing and drama particularly in the later part of the 19th century, and maybe onwards. It is a little bit like Wagner's The Ring´. A kind of history - but the history being the 19th century view of what the pagan Asa god beliefs etc. should have been like (the same Nordic movement probably provided the Vikings with helmets with those horns which they never thereafter have managed to get rid of).
But surely the calls of migrating bird flocks high up, in the dark of night, were eerie and scaring for people. Nobody could see the flocks, and for very long there was no understanding of bird migration: swallows were believed to winter burrowed down in the mud in lake bottoms.
It is quite possible that the Central European wild hunt tales still are much more genuine.
PS. Odin or Oden is the god with two ravens on his shoulder, as Corvideryck told in Corvids corner.

[verlit]

This is moved from the Picnic grounds - the follow-up to the discussion in Pig Cam after the wolf howls and 'Wild hunt' viewtopic.php?p=18901#p18901
The trouble and problem with the Wild hunt or Odin's hunts in Scandinavia is that it has been equipped with quite a few extra features, glossing and drama particularly in the later part of the 19th century, and maybe onwards. It is a little bit like Wagner's The Ring´. A kind of history - but the history being the 19th century view of what the pagan Asa god beliefs etc. should have been like (the same Nordic movement probably provided the Vikings with helmets with those horns which they never thereafter have managed to get rid of).
But surely the calls of migrating bird flocks high up, in the dark of night, were eerie and scaring for people. Nobody could see the flocks, and for very long there was no understanding of bird migration: swallows were believed to winter burrowed down in the mud in lake bottoms.
It is quite possible that the Central European wild hunt tales still are much more genuine.
PS. Odin or Oden is the god with two ravens on his shoulder, as Corvideryck told in Corvids corner.

Yes, I think they might be more geniuine and original, especially since they are all quite similar and simple at the same time. Usually once the tales became part of "art" and romantic folkor, they changed into more crafted and complicated tales, giving various details etc.
Simplier the tale, more unaltered it probably is.

Most of the Czech ones are actually quite practical, they mainly focus on how to behave to survive, rather then giving detail about who is Wild hunter, why is he/she hunting etc.

[yarko]

found another quite good site about Wild Hunt:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Wild_Hunt

But most sources talk about Germany, England, Northern countries.
No information about Czech, Poland, Belorussia etc.?
verlit can you help?

[verlit]

found another quite good site about Wild Hunt:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Wild_Hunt

But most sources talk about Germany, England, Northern countries.
No information about Czech, Poland, Belorussia etc.?
verlit can you help?

These descriptions and origins fit very much with the Czech tradition as I have metioned them earlier in viewtopic.php?p=18901#p18901 , so it is certainly the same kind of myth.

I could add just a few points - the Wild Hunt stories are more common in Bohemia then Moravia (quite understandable, there were much less forests in Moravia) and they are extremely common in all border mountains regions (again quite logical).

Apart from the advise to lay down and not to move, you are also advised not to take any part of the Wild Hunter prey, even if offered to you. If you did accept some, you would be bound to ride with them. The dogs, following the hunt are sometimes told to be souls of newborn babies which died before they were baptised (since another possible fate for them is to become lights which lure people into the swamps, I suppose it is not so bad to be a dog, running wild )

The leader of the Hunt is sometimes in local tales associated either with some of local mystical creatures or even former owners of land (which hunt as a punishment for their sins). This type of stories is quite rare, though, and is most likely of much later origin. The most common way is that there is no explanation for who or what he is. He simply IS.

There are actually recorded "sightings" or rather "hearings" of the the Wild Hount even today, although it must take quite an imagination to hear something like that in our today´s small and generally safe forests.

[verlit]

Thinking about the origins of this tale, it probably makes sense it is not known in Estonia.

It seems to be of German and/or Celtic origin and while both Celts and German tribes lived for centuries in the area which is now Czech republic, I think Celts never lived in Estonia region, am I right?

[yarko]

Thinking about the origins of this tale, it probably makes sense it is not known in Estonia.

It seems to be of German and/or Celtic origin and while both Celts and German tribes lived for centuries in the area which is now Czech republic, I think Celts never lived in Estonia region, am I right?

No - no Celts here in Estonia - living or migrating.
But German tribes, yes; BC already. (that comes from Google of course - i don't have such knowledge:)

[Liis]

(Wild hunt tales)

It seems to be of German and/or Celtic origin and while both Celts and German tribes lived for centuries in the area which is now Czech republic, I think Celts never lived in Estonia region, am I right?

What about Finland then - Caysa, Renandeli? People roughly same origin, originally, as Estonians, different landscape, different external cultural influences (Swedish conquest and christening rather early) but probably some Sami and eastern (Russia) influence too?
Arvi viewtopic.php?p=18896#p18896, you have a point. Tales and scares often come from the unknown. Wolves were frightening and not welcome, but known and real, the bird calls in the night were not, then.

[verlit]

After this interesting talk about Wild Hunt it occured to me we have actually tales about other animal which we watch - Tawny Owl.

I medieval times it was common belief it is a herald of Death. When it was heard to call at night outside the house, it was suppose to announce a death in the family. Also it´s call was transcribed as "půůůjď" meaning "come with me".
No other owl, although their calls are sometimes similar, was associated with similar role.

One possible explanation is that when somebody was sick in the family, the candle was left burning while somebody was sitting by his/her bed at night and this light - unusual at times without electricity - attracted tawny owl close to the house. Given the mortality from illnesses in medieval times it could be remembered once the sick person died and poor tawny got blaimed for the death.

Do you have similar tales about tawny owl? (I wonder if tawnies could also be responsible for banshee stories, although we have no such stories in the Czech republic)

[Olga]

Verlit said abowe

Do you have similar tales about tawny owl? (I wonder if tawnies could also be responsible for banshee stories, although we have no such stories in the Czech republic)

I did not yet find meanings especially for the Tawny owl in our Folklore. But in general on owls in Finnish culture, it is told, that owls has been thought to be stupid.

cite ..It has been determined using the comparative method that the Finnish language developed the sound Ö [ø] relatively recently to introduce a fronted counterpart to [o], in line with [a] - [æ] and - [y]. Moreover, the new sound has found use mostly in words considered by many to be derisive or amusing. For example, the reason the vowel /ö/ was originally used for the word pöllö "owl" was to make it sound stupid, since the Finnish mythology and folklore always presents the owl as a stupid animal. Most words meaning "stupid" contain /ø/, e.g. hölmö, pöhkö, höhlä,

One interestin thing. The word kaku, owl in Estonian, means in our language 'grazy', 'mentally sick', mad. It is written kako! So 'kako-camera' would mean in Finnish a live view to mental hospital.

The meanings to the word pöllöowl as a vise and learned person is known here of course, but it is modern time's loan from the ancient civiliced world, from Europe! Owl = Minerva: Minerva. Greek (Athena). Etruscan (Menrva). Goddess of Wisdom, Learning

What about the Estonian word kaku- kako ( stupid in Finnish). Has it these kind of pejorative meanings ?

(PS: So my point of view was 'phonosemantic' from an article "Inherently funny word", link:

https://www.amazines.com/Inherently_fun ... lated.html
- we have lots of legends and mythes on owls.. there are 40 different bynames in Finnish to owl, impossible to translate.)

[alice44]

That name - (veetallaja) - puzzled me; i Googled and found this:
When feeding, a phalarope will often swim in a small, rapid circle, forming a small whirlpool. This behavior is thought to aid feeding by raising food from the bottom of shallow water. The bird will reach into the center of the vortex with its bill, plucking small insects or crustaceans caught up therein.
Fascinating!

I see them on occasion, sometimes in water sometimes, on land, but the way they spin in the water is very enticing. Rather off topic as it is not a story or folk lore!

[alice44]

Several native American groups associate Owls -- I think sometimes seeing them and sometimes hearing them -- with death.

[maertha]

Perhaps it would be interesting to share our favourite “animal books”? Scientific, belletristic? In English or other languages?